Trading With The Flow!!!

As there has been excellent participation in the Nifty 60 min Flow, we are starting a new thread for the further posts. The previous thread is locked and from now on all the discussions should be carried out in this thread.

Here is the link to this thread

Link to previous thread

Kapil

Thanks Bee,Kaiser,Pattel,neeraj for positive responce….I always knew you guys will come forward to help.

Thanks once again….

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Yes, a lot of learning happening from the initiative of you selfless junta…..
Learning and just trying to gain confidence by following market hour by hour……
Will start trading as soon as I become confident enough of becoming blind to everything except the rules………….
Cant wait to get into the market but holding up…………

Now SAR stands at 3 clock bar high + filter of 6 apr.

A warm welcome,Tushar………and all the best!

Saint

Good morning A huge gap down so the gap rule ?

yes gap rules……

NEERAJ
as per gap rule sar shld b 5mnts bar high+f
it vl b a aggressive sar.

neeraj
gap rule
5mnts bar high+f
it vl b a aggressive sar??

yes gap rules……

Gap Down..we r holding Shorts.

Add below the low of the opening bar.

In a gap down….we dont look at the opening bar colour…..Move stops now to the 3pm bar high…..if we make lower lows….move to yesterdays close(high of 3.30 bar can also be taken…just 2 point diff).

Ideally for reversal, I would wait for a lower pivot high to form. Till then….either ydays close or 2 bar…depending on the speed of move.

Thanks,
Puneet

but neeraj .. we didn't seen big bearish bars on monday & today's 5 min bar is not a green bar

can we use gap rule in these conditions ..plz explain

vineet

p.s. sorry ,didn't saw puneet's post.fully agree with him here…

Reposting ST's post ….removed the redundant thing
tushar

ks Bee,Kaiser,Pattel,neeraj for positive responce….I always knew you guys will come forward to help.

Thanks once again….

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Dear St Da will try to post chart here and TJ ……..

Regards
Satya

For the correct Gap rules please check the link School > Methods > 60 min Flow Trade through the top navigation bar.
In this site we have all the rules for various methods at one place.

To go straight to the rules for 60 min flow

Kapil

Thanks Kapil…
sorry for the last redundant post…..will remove it.

You know I will call these rules as —— Jadoo…. :)

Cheers
Tushar

thanks puneet…..u r rite….3 p.m. bar ideal stop….or a lower pivot high…….

Applying today's lesson on 5 bars. Fifth bar is forming now and if it goes on to take out the SAR, then 6 th bar will reverse as per the rule and we will have EOD reversal in our hand.Flights of fancy from a bored trader.:-)
Bee

NF SAR hit. Now long.

Yes LVG,

Longs triggered now. SAR being at 1pm low-f

Kapil

nifty fut long now. 3184—filter

why 3184-filter niftyrider (is it due to WRB),,, what has happened to market ???

yes srini WRB and kapil also quoted 1 pm bar

Srini

Its 2 bar rule

Kapil

Do we move the SAR to current bar low once it is completed!!! Considereing it as WRB the move as a failed Upmove!!!
Also please confirmat what level ~ 3.28 do we consider reverting back to Short.

Yes Sir…move stops to current bar low after completion….and add above it.

Eod reversal below 3280

Some heavy groups are making the market dancing to their tunes. lots of wrong up & down moves.

Srini,there may or may not be heavy bull-bear activity,there may be a hand behind it all,or maybe there isn't…………our job however is to go with the flow whatever happens.

For us,there are moves…………never a right move or a wrong move….just moves.

Saint

Some heavy groups are making the market dancing to their tunes. lots of wrong up & down moves.

no srini market always right

Regards
Satya

Applying today's lesson on 5 bars. Fifth bar is forming now and if it goes on to take out the SAR, then 6 th bar will reverse as per the rule and we will have EOD reversal in our hand.Flights of fancy from a bored trader.:-)
Bee

Hi Bee Cud not Get you

Regards
Satya

no srini market always right

Regards
Satya

Yes satya market is always right.

Hello Guys
So we have a GAP down today rather a huge gap down , if the first bar would have been bullish we would have applied gap rule and the long would have been trigerred at 5min high + f.
But as the first bar was bearish our SAR was at yday last bar high +f.
In such scenarios(huge gaps in favour) where the first 5 min bar restricts us to apply GAP IN FAVOUR rule why dont we treat huge gaps as a Monster WRB and apply the 50% rule.
My view is confined to huge monsters gap and not all the GAPS. I dont know yet after we backtest such situation todays GAP would qualify for it or not, just a thought arised looking at todays situation.

PS: Perhaps it is being already in use and I am not aware or you feel I am over analysing the situation, if so please forgive my ignorance !!!!.

Thanks
KomaL

Thanks Komal for your thought …………..

Regards
Satya

thnx komal for this new tweak, shld try this 1 also.

Komal,

A little bit of difference of opinion. We would not have applied gap rules today even if the 1st 5min bar was green. Now coming to the application of gap rules when gap is in our favor, details of different scenarios is given under the 60 min Flow method which can be accessed through the top navigation bar under School.

For gaps in our favor, we apply gap rules only when we are long, have had real steep rise, then the market gaps up and 1st bar is red. We do go short below this bar. The same is not true for the situation where we are short. Why? The reason being the way market behaves during a fall and during a rise. Lets say we keep a SAR at 50% of the gap, now what if its just a gap filling exercise and market tanks after filling the gap. Today's gap certainly was not exhaustion gap, as besides the gap we hardly had any sell off before that.

Kapil

Saint,

Can we apply 33% monster WRB rule to 60 min method ? or it is a mini flow only rule ?

If it is applicable to 60 min flow,our SAR will be ( open + 33% of ( close -open)) of 3:00 bar today (8th April 09) -f

Regards,

Smart_trade

slight correction in your formula, ST. It should be + f instead of - f :)

Hi Bee Cud not Get you

Regards
Satya

Satya,

Please ignore it. Does not matter.
Bee

Rishi,

slight correction in your formula, ST. It should be + f instead of - f :)

ST is talking in terms of a long trade and in context of a bullish monster WRB. He is right.

Bee

Komal,

Kapil's logic is perfect. Today's price action was amazing and is a rarity in bear market where we have a huge gap down and then price moves up and beyond the PH where our SAR is.

Price action insight and linking them with flow rules requires a bit of deeper thinking, a bit like meditation — that is why virtually all traders are late night sleepers. In the peace and quite of the late night, we get our enlightenment, :-)

Bee

bee kapil
to me its a surprise to learn that we dont apply GAP in FAVOUR rule when we are short.
On 24th feb we took long based on the same rule.
Another instance 6th March GAP DOWN in favour .. first 5min bar bullish long trigerred above 5min bar high+f.

thanks
KomaL

Yes LVG,

Longs triggered now. SAR being at 1pm low-f

Kapil

Respected Seniors,

Please explain , Can't we take SAR below 3:00 PM bar low - filter , according to Breakout Bar Rule
New to this method and try to understand how to apply it

Thanks to all seniors
For their Help and million worth discussion

Kinkhab

SAR at the day's low for now………….wait till price opens up tomorrow.If opens up at these levels or gap up,raise SAR to the low of that huge WRB -f.On a gap down,will have to reassess the degree et al tomorrow.

For now,SAR at day's low.

Saint

Saint,

Can we apply 33% monster WRB rule to 60 min method ? or it is a mini flow only rule ?

If it is applicable to 60 min flow,our SAR will be ( open + 33% of ( close -open)) of 3:00 bar today (8th April 09) -f

Regards,

Smart_trade

ST,

The WRB is very powerful,and once we get a WRB like today's,and if markets went on for 24hrs,I would raise stops to the low of the WRB immediately after the next bar…………….but since we live in a gap-ridden world,and Gaps are as powerful as WRB's,we need to slow down our actions a bit.

Keep the SAR at the LOD for now……..to move to the low of WRB after markets open.

Saint

http://tradersaint.com/forum/t-145078/nifty-futures-60-min-flow-part-iv#post-443574

Please to resolve the thing raised by Komal…

The same thing is troubling me although the explanation given by Kapil is very much according to the rules and logically seems correct but as Komal has mentioned on 24th Feb on Gap down, we went up at 5min bar + f……. Even Saint had mentioned the same thing…….

Seniors please explain the dilemma…
May be we have jumped on another level and that is a new learning and it shouldn't be done…..Please ignore if this is so.

tushar

P.S. The world of charts and 60 minute is becoming more and more fascinating as I am reading post by post looking at bar by bar, and looking at Saint's post at 11 PM….God this is hard work I must be rewarded……

Tushar,

Just posted about WRB in http://tradersaint.com/forum/t-142942/the-60min-flow#post-443696

Will be posting about Gaps soon………

Great questions,Tushar,and keep 'em coming!!

Saint

Komal,

bee kapil
to me its a surprise to learn that we dont apply GAP in FAVOUR rule when we are short.
On 24th feb we took long based on the same rule.
Another instance 6th March GAP DOWN in favour .. first 5min bar bullish long trigerred above 5min bar high+f.

thanks
KomaL

In both the cases the gaps were not of the magnitude as we had witnessed today, so all the more reason not to go long over 5 min bar high + filter. The treatment is slightly different when you are short. Prices fall faster and at a drop of your hat as markets get spooked at every bad news or sentiment. So we have to be double sure that market has reversed to long and has come out of this downward spiral conclusively before we revert to longs.

As far as I am concerned in both the cases my SAR was at the last PH and I waited for a pivot break to reverse to longs.

Maybe Kapil who is more articulate than me in such matters can clear your doubt.

Bee

Taking up further about reversal from short to long and our examination that market has really reversed to the long side or not is Saint's above post.

He is saying to keep the SAR at day's low even though we have 2 bar rule to move our SAR up, plus ST's eagerness to move to not below the WRB but to 33% less filter of that WRB but we are waiting for tomorrow's opening to see where to put our SAR.

NF is now trading at the upper range on its recent climb up. Wild swings are expected now before it settles on a new trend up or down, so we play safe and keep our SAR wide to avoid being whipsawed about.

Saint is now trying to bring about things which are not covered in the strict confines of the rules but now he sees that we are fit to read the situation for someone who is no longer a novice. So we move up a step further, I think.

Hope I am correct.

Bee

hmmmm bee so you mean to say the magnitude of the gap yesterday was high and hence we would not have shift to long at 5min high+f
However my point of discussion was not particualarly for yday scenario, I was trying to clear the confusion over whether we apply GAP IN FAVOUR rule when we are SHORT or it is only Applicable when we are LONG.

I think kapil is making his point looking at the rules posted by saint in the method section where in GAP IN FAVOUR when we are SHORT is NOT MENTIONED and I have picked up instances from the recent past.

Lets wait for the saints post in GAP, I am sure it will settle all the dust.

thanks
KomaL

bee kapil
to me its a surprise to learn that we dont apply GAP in FAVOUR rule when we are short.
On 24th feb we took long based on the same rule.
Another instance 6th March GAP DOWN in favour .. first 5min bar bullish long trigerred above 5min bar high+f.

thanks
KomaL

Lets wait for the Saint's post on gaps. Meanwhile regarding the trades on the dates mentioned, please refer to the chart posted by Saint in the 1st part of NF 60 min. We had huge gap in our favor, we look for 2 bar rule. On 24th Feb we went long over the high of 3rd bar at 2721 with a higher filter. Now coming to 6th March, we applied 2 bar rule there for the SAR, but again got a PH at 2578 above which we went long.

Kapil

Tush

ar,

Just posted about WRB in http://tradersaint.com/forum/t-142942/the-60min-flow#post-443696

Will be posting about Gaps soon………

Great questions,Tushar,and keep 'em coming!!

Saint

Thank you sir will wait for Gap teachings

Regards
Satya

Dear All in my view we can never predict a gap exshustion gap so why not we derive some generic rule to apply all gaps which also take care this type of situation …………….

After yesterdays gap squre off your position after 5 min high broken and if you were playing gap trading at eod convert these into 60 min flow trade as pivot broken

If pivot not broken then get back into the flow short at EOD …………..

And in mean time when price reverse and 5 min low broken then get back into flow by shorting

Find huge the gap more likely it will be a unidirectional movemet day

My view only

Regards
Satya

Komal,

hmmmm bee so you mean to say the magnitude of the gap yesterday was high and hence we would not have shift to long at 5min high+f

No. I meant magnitude does not matter. Treatment for short is different. Sorry if I have not been able to explain it to you.

Bee

SAR to the low of the WRB at 3PM yesterday.

Saint

Dear All

in my view we can never predict a gap exshustion gap so why not we derive some generic rule to apply all gaps which also take care this type of situation …………….

After yesterdays gap squre off your position after 5 min high broken and if you were playing gap trading at eod convert these into 60 min flow trade as pivot broken

If pivot not broken then get back into the flow short at EOD …………..

And in mean time when price reverse and 5 min low broken then get back into flow by shorting

Find huge the gap more likely it will be a unidirectional movemet day

My view only

Regards
Satya

Yes, Satya, Good suggestion. All we need to do is have a look at historical gaps to judge the efficasy of your suggestion. Thanks.

If low of today is not broken till 12 Noon , do we shift the SAR to todays low -f!??

11 am bar low become sar only after we get new high.

Yes, Saty

a, Good suggestion. All we need to do is have a look at historical gaps to judge the efficasy of your suggestion. Thanks.

Thanks Dear RK learnt from you a lot on this ……..

Regards
Satya

Thanks Maxim… If we get a high breaching the high of 11AM bar, can we consider changing the SAR, or we need to have a higher high for the day to move the sar to todays low?

Yes,Maxim………RK,SAR where it is for now.Once new highs,raise it to today's low.

Saint

imo,we need hh,it give strength to current trend,what we need to change sar

rgds
Maxim

Is SAR is LOD now?

SAR still at yesterdays 3pm WRB low. Once adds are triggered over day's high, we can move it to days low.

Kapil

if 2pm bar low is not breached by current bar ,change sar to 2pm bar low -f,

Adds valid above 1pm bar high? Or is it still at day's high + filter?

Not yet Maxim……………SAR still at low of the WRB from 3pm yesterday.

But we are approaching an add point over the 3387+f region

All the best!
Saint

Observe that at this point we are eyeing the 1pm pivot high to add to our long……………..price has triggerred our add but not gone over our high of day.

So,our SAR remains at 3pm yesterday low till it does.

Saint

Observe that at this point we are eyeing the 1pm pivot high to add to our long……………..price has triggerred our add but not gone over our high of day.

So,our SAR remains at 3pm yesterday low till it does.

Saint

Gotcha….

ohh….still …..

sir please can u explain….y we nt move stops still…..it almost touched d high…..sir sum deeep explanation if possible…..

thanks…

Will be throwing some more stuff starting tonight,Neeraj……..might make things more clearer.Till end of day,SAR at the low of the WRB at 3pm yesterday unless new highs are made.

Saint

ohh….sti
> ll …..

sir please can u explain….y we nt move stops still…..it almost touched d high…..sir sum deeep explanation if possible…..

thanks…

Dear neeraj in my view bulls still not strong to take price above high of the day where bears jumped in from opening so this is a cosolidation or fight between bull and bear or acumulation or distribution going on once bulls succed to cross high of day then we will have todays low as good demand point where bulls jumped to arrest the down move and we will have very good pivot low

My view only waiting Saints valuable comment

Reagrds
Satya

do we have any reversal EOD

:) yeaa satya….

wat if bears win :D nt today may be monday…..

dis confused as u knw many times we have reversed when hod was nt breached but 3-4 bars formed a pivot……+ u knw a good sideways is always a good place to reverse ww pattern ….in which high not taken out…………

saint sir eagerly waiting for some stuff on gaps and todays case…………also waiting 4 ur inputs on less stops…ambushtrades…….in the schools section……

also this weekend will try to get some stuff on gaps..and will post it here……diff situations….hav been lazy…..but no way out………..will do dis weekend……

regards

neeraj

btw, hope no one is forgetting that tomorrow markets are closed…so be careful..and tread carefully…

Yes Neeraj we have a side ways movement will wait till EOD in sideways movement dont wanted to reverse as can be there whipsaw but look at high and low of day which is tested at exact point

Waiting your valuable input on GAPS

Regards
Satya

Dear all,

A small may be very stupid query:

Say we are short and we have an SAR at x + f which is a pivot high then the first bar whenever it forms and take out this x + f we go long OR we wait for another bar to form ??

My understanding: we just place an order to buy above x + f as soon as this pivot high becomes our SAR.

Dear all,

A small may be very stupid query:

Say we are short and we have an SAR at x + f which is a pivot high then the first bar whenever it forms and take out this x + f we go long OR we wait for another bar to form ??

My understanding: we just place an order at x + f as soon as this pivot high becomes our SAR.

Yes Tushar, once we have SAR at x+f, we do reverse at that point only. The only exception would be if that PH x is taken out but not x+f, and we get a new PH at a price which is higher than x, but not high enough to get us to reverse the trade, then shift the SAR to this new PH +f.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil..

Had that moving filter understanding.
I am looking at loads of charts on traderji posted by Pattel, Komal, ST, neeraj, rakesh…….and i don't know the filter of lot of stocks and people have shifted their SARs…..very frequently…..so in between i was getting small confusion as to why they are not going long on breaking of pivot, then realizzed they are using much bigger filter then i was expecting……..

The effort people have put in for posting charts is mammoth, hope i will be able to utilize it and can get into the market as soon as possible because learning this method is breaking my patience to jump into the pool and swim but just holding myself to be very sure of not getting drowned as soon as i jump………

One more query, is it that stock futures chart have lesser gaps to be tackled and thus it makes more sense to start with stock futures because nifty seems more tricky with many complexities hidden mastered by seniors here ????

Tushar,

I think the decision about choice between Stock Futures and NF has to be made by you only. The method for both is the same. Both have their pros and cons. Both will take turns to be in range bound days to give us difficult times and to be in yummy trending days. Everybody has their own favorites, so maybe you can look at various charts and decide for yourself.

Kapil

Neeraj,

Still want to crush and munch about the WRB a bit more,shall put up Gap Stuff soon……….for now,till explanation later,at the end of Bar 1 on 9th,raise SAR to the low of the WRB at 3pm 8th.After all the other bars have formed,till end of day,we did not get our new highs.SAR remains at the low of 8th 3pm bar at EOD.

Now this qualifies as a sideways pivot,and here's how we tackle it.

There will be 3 scenarios:
A.NF opens at around where it closed,SAR remains at the low of 3pm bar on 8th.
B.NF gaps up visually,SAR is pushed to the low of 9th.

C.NF gaps down visually below the range of 9th,in effect raise SAR to the low of 9th,and effect the gap against pivot 5min bar rules.

Saint

thank u saint sir…..backtesting is really tough….sounds easy….but its really tough….totally a different scenario then real time………

will b waiting 4 ur inputs……WRB and gaps are very very vital for understanding the flow method as a whole…….and are the most toughest and confusing situations to handle…until clear understanding……..

saint sir…there is a similar pattern in reliance industries….diff is dat in reliance industries high was taken out…..in it we already have SAR at 9th low….. ?

diff in 2 scenarios is the high was taken out in reliance industries….and was nt taken out in nifty…..

regards

neeraj

Neeraj
Reliance 2pm bar is the SAR.

Thanks
KomaL

Yes Neeraj,…..and SAR as Komal stated above.

Saint

thnx komal and saint sir…:)

Dear Saint and seniors,
this is the firs time that i am trading real time, i have taken leaves to try out this methodrequest your full supprot.

Assuming i am taking a fresh trade i would be in zero postiion right now am i correct.

Regards
Milind

SAR Still at 3pm bar low of 8th April

Aravind.

i beg to differ……..bringing stops at 2 p.m. bar of 9 april….too much sideways fr abt 7 hrs……a good place to reverse……..if wrong SAR will b there……..

regards

neeraj

yes Neeraj……..correct.Even more correct if this bar does not take out 9th low…..9mins to go.

Saint

So far SAR at 9th lows………..

As already discussed,when we enter sideways territory,we no more wait for new highs to raise SAR.Which was the reason we moved our SAR to 9th lows.To determine that this is indeed sideways move,we gave it 8-9 bars before doing anything abt it.

We have 9mins to go for the next hour………if this indeed closes here as a NRB,another sideways bar,we get ourselves a sideways pivot and therefore a higher pivot low,to now raise our SAR to today's low.

Saint

saint sir
I agree we have a sideways movement for quite long now … but shouldnt we keep our SAR at the lowest point of SIDEWAYS MOVEMENT.

thanks
KomaL

New high just made,

Can we move the SAR to today's low or we wait for the candle to complete??

Not in the market but following real time charts to start trading in a session or two……
Looking for real time guidance before getting in the water….

if 3 pm bar, bo bar ,ends up in green then failed bo rules can be used

Adds trigger now after a long sideways move…

Adds triggered at yesterday's high +Add filter. SAR being at LOD-f

Kapil

Tushar,

Already had moved SAR to today's low………but now all clear cut.Yes,SAR To today's low

Saint

So far a WRB Breakout on the NF60 with 11mins to go.

Saint

Nice adds Kapil,Puneet…..great going!

Saint

suddenly, the life comes in the flow!!!!

@ milindkuyilan :- since u are not in the flow yet and because markets have run a bit too high ..better come into the flow when we will reverse …. we will meet u soon :)

Keep Flowing

Back from my holiday. Great to see many new posts!!…..

Posting the trade so far NF……

Regards,
MJ

Great to have you back,MJ!!

Saint

welcome back MJ and good morning all hope you enjoyed the holiday ,,,great charts

Regards
Satya

Great to have you back,MJ!!
Saint

welcome back MJ and good morning all hope you enjoyed the holiday ,,,great charts

Regards
Satya

:) :)

KAPIL….YS LOW ??

ISNT IT TODAYS 5 MIN BAR LOW - F … ?

SHUBHO NABO BARSHO (Happy Bengali New Year)
To all…………

KAPIL….YS LOW ??

ISNT IT TODAYS 5 MIN BAR LOW - F … ?

I have deleted the previous post of mine as that was supposed to be posted before mkt open, but somehow got it much after that.

Yes Neeraj, SAR at today's 1st 5min low-f now.

Kapil

Today's 5 min. bar low 3326.50….yesterday's 3339.1, the opening is above yesterday's low, so do we stay on yesterday's low as SAR or today's low - f ????

Also, I will be making my debut in flow method through MINIFTY……
Somebody advised in the thread that I should be looking at NIFTY charts only. But today high on opening bar was 3360 on MINIFTY and 3352 on NIFTY………!!! Seniors please to advise.

Secondly, I dont know the filters: are they- small add f = 7, normal f = 15, and big f = 20-25 depending upon ur risk appetite….please confirm.

Tushar, As already mentioned in previous post, SAR at today's low -f.

To your second question, you should look at Nifty charts only, but do have the SAR punched in giving an allowance for the fact that you are trading MiNifty. Because at times the move is so fast that if SAR is not punched in, the market might move quite a bit by the time you reverse your position.
About filters, everybody is using their own as per the backtesting.

Kapil

welcome tushar :)

ys tushar…..SAR today's low - f……..

u should be looking at the chart which u are trading………but advisable look at nf chart……..as mini nf has given me whips sometimes….follow NF levels…..

normal filters are used in case of normal pivot trading….big filters in case of gaps and 2 bar's rule……….

regards

neeraj

Dear Saint and Seniors,

i am long nifty now, am i in the right trade.% min high + filter

Regards
Milind

Dear Saint and Seniors,

i am long nifty now, am i in the right trade.% min high + filter

Regards
Milind

Milind,

We are all long in NF with all adds. But we got in the trade much earlier(hope you are talking of 60min trading). Ideally you should have waited for the reversal to get into the trade.

Kapil

Dear Kapil,

Why reversal , if the nifty is above 5 min high + filter. am only seeing hourly charts. i am nervous as this is my first trade , please advise why reversal. if you were short would you not cover and go long above the 5 min high + filter.

I may ask too many questions as this is my first day of trade.Request you to please clear my doubts, i am fed of asking my broker what to do.i want to trade myslef and i know i can do it.
Regards
Milind

Also, I will be making my debut in flow method through MINIFTY……
Somebody advised in the thread that I should be looking at NIFTY charts only. But today high on opening bar was 3360 on MINIFTY and 3352 on NIFTY………!!! Seniors please to advise.
Tushar

Hi tushar, Trade Mini-Nifty using Nifty levels. Give 2 pts or 1.5pts space. So If Nifty reversal to longs is at 4500, you put your order at 4502. There shall be no problems.

Regards,
MJ-

Thanks MJ, Neeraj, Kapil…….seeing such a warm support i hope i will be able to sail through initial phase……..waiting for the reversal to enter…………..because currently the long position is with exhaustive adds…….

How to quote somebody in this thread?

Yes Milind, you can definitely trade yourself. All your questions and doubts are welcome too, as those coming from a learning mind are a teacher for me.
Suggestion to get into trade on reversals is essentially based on the fact that each trade long or short has a duration or life attached with it. That means that if I am long, that trade will not continue forever. There is bound to be reversal after some time. So entering at a stage when all other traders already have full positions, means that you are entering that particular trend pretty late.

Kapil

How to quote somebody in this thread?

First the post has to be copied by simple copy paste thing in your post. Then select the whole block of text which you want to Quote. All the lines which needed to be quoted should be selected.
Then press the quote button "Q".

Have added twice in this long trade, MJ's chart says 3 adds. Another add coming up above April 13 high.
Bee

Dear Kapil,
Thank a ton for the quick reply, i am not long above 5 min bar plus 1 add at 3394. is this correct

Regards
Milind

Dear Kapil,
Thank a ton for the quick reply, i am now long iwth 2 lots first above 5 min bar+f , plus 1 add at 3394. is this correct

Regards
Milind

Absolutely fine Bee, infact for many MM wouldn't have allowed that add there, stops didn't move.

Regards,
MJ-

Milind, where are your stops? And if your stops are hit how much will you loose? IF its more than 1% of your capital then wrong move…..
Meaning with (say) a capital of 10 lakhs we risk no more than 10,000 Rs (1%) on a trade.

Hope your trade works out great, but try to spend some more time to understand the system, it has many small tweaks here and there. We are buying breaks of PH's and Selling breaks of PL's….but many other things as well. Why not post a chart of the last month in any flow stock in the Doubts query so we can all aid in your learning?

Regards,
MJ-

Dear Kapil,
Thank a ton for the quick reply, i am now long iwth 2 lots first above 5 min bar+f , plus 1 add at 3394. is this correct

Regards
Milind

Milind,to get into the flow,always best to get in at a reversal to the other direction…and 3394 is not an add point.Don't confuse the 60min Flow and the MiniFlow…….please take time and understand the method first.Slow and steady,my friend,baby steps for now.

For this particular trade,keep ur SAR at the low of today and reverse with the rest of us if hits.

Saint

Absolutely fine Bee, infact for many MM wouldn't have allowed that add there, stops didn't move.

Regards,
MJ-

Yes MJ. This coming add seems heavy going for me too as SAR is still not moving up much plus this two-day sideways movement after a prolonged up move is ominous.
Bee

Dear Saint and MJ,

Thanks a ton for the reply.Going through the basics again.

Regards
Milind

Doesnt look like any reverse will happen and i will be able to enter :( patience patience patience………holding on.

Adds triggered for the long holders around 3447 ??

Adds triggered for the long holders around 3447 ??

Tushar

3447? Add filter is much less.
Bee

Can we apply 2 bar rule and move SAR to 1.00pm low - f?

3447? Add filter is much less.

Okie….it means for adds we use small f, SAR medium f and for gaps/WRBs big f ?

This is an interesting situation. 5 bars— two medium sized bars, 2 small and one dozi all making HH and HL. 2 bar rule still not used because of the bars as described. SAR some 150 points away. 6th bar just crossed the high of 5th bar.

What do we do? Do we take a peek at 30 minute TF and take shelter in the small pivot there, or now use 2 bar rule or keep the SAR at day's low?

Bee

This is an interesting situation. 5 bars— two medium sized bars, 2 small and one dozi all making HH and HL. 2 bar rule still not used because of the bars as described. SAR some 150 points away. 6th bar just crossed the high of 5th bar.

What do we do? Do we take a peek at 30 minute TF and take shelter in the small pivot there, or now use 2 bar rule or keep the SAR at day's low?

Bee

Bee, we already have a pivot on 60min charts made by 3pm bar. But now the SAR would depend on where the market opens. For a gap up, we can have the SAR at this pivot.

Kapil

Bee, we already have a pivot on 60min charts made by 3pm bar. But now the SAR would depend on where the market opens. For a gap up or flat open, we can have the SAR at this pivot.

Kapil

Kapil,

Which 3 pm bar? I do not see any pivot there today. All bars are HH and HL. 3 pm bar today is a bearish dozi. Am I missing something?
Bee

Yes Bee. Kind of a minor pivot. But we can take it depending on where the market opens now.

Yes Bee. Kind of a minor pivot. But we can take it depending on where the market opens now.

Kapil,

Now this is very interesting. Can you please explain this pivot? Till now whatever we have been exposed to (well we may have been exposed to many such things but failed to recognise them), I would not have considered this as a minor pivot even by a long shot. But since you have pointed this out as a minor pivot, that has set me thinking. This is something new for me.

Please explain this pivot.

Thanks

Bee

Kapil,

Is it that since 3 pm bar closing is a closing below both the neighbouring bars left and right (3472.4,3465, 3492.3) we can call it a minor pivot though it is not a visual pivot ?

And since this is a situation when lot of adds are there, this is actually a cautious step ?

Bee please to answer my filter question ?

Bee, for the time being forget whether it is a pivot or not. In case of a visual gap up, it corresponds to the 2 bar SAR in any case.
The reason I mentioned this pivot is that let us assume we are long and 2 bar gives a SAR of "x" and this type of pivot gives a slightly lower SAR say "x-10". Then instead of using 2 bar I will use this kind of pivot.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil. Interesting way of looking at things in 60 min flow.

Tushar, what you have written about filters is correct.

Bee

good morning All hope every one enjoying this move …………….

Regards
Satya

Bee,

we already have a pivot on 60min charts made by 3pm bar. But now the SAR would depend on where the market opens. For a gap up, we can have the SAR at this pivot.

Kapil

Hi Kapil its a flat opening i think yesterdays 3 pm bar is too tight we should give some space so that it can make some pivots

Regards
Satya

Yes Satya, SAR at 2pm bar low -f. (was dreaming of a gap up.. lol)

Kapil

Hi Kapil its a flat opening i think yesterdays 3 pm bar is too tight we should give some space so that it can make some pivots

Satya/Kapil,

I still want to know how you people are considering the 3 pm bar as any pivot and to shift SAR there? Are you discounting the wicks and seeing only the body of the dozi (3 pm bar of yesterday)? Remarks and comments on this please.

So coming to my original question — where is the SAR now?!

Bee

my view

Regards
Satya

Yes Saty

a, SAR at 2pm bar low -f. (was dreaming of a gap up.. lol)

Kapil

lol kapil bhai App bahut greedy ho ………. you have already made 400 + point in nifty in this trade he he
even i was thinking gap up then short below 5 min low

did not saw you post while posting charts

Regards
Satya

As of now keeping the SAR at 2pm bar low-f..using the 2 bar method. Watch out for this current bar..if it takes out yesterdays highs…..few things like BO bar reversal etc might come into play.

As of now….sitting calm at 2pm.

Puneet

edit: ooops..Kapil has already posted.,,saw that just now

Saty

a/Kapil,

I still want to know how you people are considering the 3 pm bar as any pivot and to shift SAR there? Are you discounting the wicks and seeing only the body of the dozi (3 pm bar of yesterday)? Remarks and comments on this please.

So coming to my original question — where is the SAR now?!

Bee

hi Bee no i dont see a pivot at 3 pm bar on 60 min chart as kapil said 2 bar etc can be brought in place hope we get a pivot low soon

Regards
Satya

hi Bee no i dont see a pivot at 3 pm bar on 60 min chart as kapil said 2 bar etc can be brought in place hope we get a pivot low soon

The 3pm bar is a 'hidden' type of pivot..not visible to the layman as such.
Use it ONLY when the move is good enough or close to getting the 2 bar into picture. Think Kapil has already explained it beautifully. Consider these pivots as turning points, where markets reversed direction for a short duration and then came back in line with the trend.

Puneet

The

3pm bar is a 'hidden' type of pivot..not visible to the layman as such.
Use it ONLY when the move is good enough or close to getting the 2 bar into picture. Think Kapil has already explained it beautifully. Consider these pivots as turning points, where markets reversed direction for a short duration and then came back in line with the trend.

Puneet

Thanks puneet yes read kapils view but this point will become important in certain cases ….. as bee asked right now it dont look like a pivot ….

Regards
Satya

Puneet/Kapil,

I only have a vague inkling as to how you see this as a hidden pivot but I cannot base my actions on live trading on such thinking. Thanks for describing this.

Wonder how you guys got all this and have graduated from layman to higher levels of this method.

Bee

Bee Sir..even we r not using this talked abt pivot as of now. As I said, use it when there is an itch to get in the 2 bar method and this type of pivot is close to it.

I too am learning like you…so we all are on the same boat. That word layman was certainly not meant for you in my last post. If took it that way, I am extremely sorry for that.

Thanks,
Puneet

Puneet,

I do not mind being called a layman:) No need to apologise or feel sorry, my friend. We have been together now for a long time in this wonderful set to let such things come in our way. Just that you & Kapil gave me a new angle to a view which I had missed to see.

More such viewpoints are more than welcome.

Happy Trading:-)

Bee

Pivot in question is agressive pivot,it is a point where mkt in short term has changed direction ,it becomes more clear if we take help from 30 min TF ,we take "visually obvious" pivots here.2 bars SAR is closeby…so let us not bother too much about the hidden pivot.

Trade Well !!!

Smart_trade

Yes ST,

This hidden pivot is clear now. Let us see RIL - the bars are similar - pivot (hidden) is also similar - had we kept out SAR at 2 bar low we would be short now.

The point I am making here is in my original question put yesterday. The bars in RIL as well as NF are not big enough to my mind for 2 bar rule to kick in. Now 150 points SAR seems too far back so what do we do?

Answer to hunt for a place near about 33% of this uptrend — which is around 12 noon bar low of yesterday, which also is a hidden pivot:-).

Am I being too analytical here :-)

Bee

Looks like the "minor" pivot low was successfully defended in ultrashort timeframe. Whether so at 60m, will have to wait and see.

Let us see RIL - the bars are similar - pivot (hidden) is also similar - had we kept out SAR at 2 bar low we would be short now.

Bee,

I cannot see short happened even if we take 2 bar low, please tell me which bar you are talking about…..still learning, and havent seen 2 bar method real time…..please bear this n guide the novice…….

Saint sir, waiting your guidance on the current situation, lot of discussions here….

My take: as Kapil had said, SAR at 2pm bar - f and today 12 noon bar seems to be becoming a pivot if 1 pm bar close above to give a clear SAR ??

Tushar,

Kapil and Puneet have advised to keep SAR at 2 pm bar low less filter. My advice is to follow them. It is as per the 2 bar rule. Please count the bars and see for yourself.

Yes a new PL is in the making. Lets wait and see.

Bee

thanx bee…shorts nearby…..my gateway to flow…

Any one short triggered ?

Regards

Muktha

I m short mukhta

Short triggered..

Short triggered below yesterdays 2 PM bar low -filter.

saint,st,kapil,mj
no confirmation from u all !!!!!!!

Confirmed NR

Trust your understanding. With you all, Short now… :)

MJ-

thnx to all.
boss u r all experts…….

very important to look at EOD reversal near closing…should not be in SOH mode today at all..

Yes, will watch out, my first trade in the flow…..shorted……..gosh i dont wanna see EOD reversal in my first trade…

Dear Tushar,

my first short too, i am in the flow now. Seniors thank you for pointing up my mistake . clear now.

Regards
milind

bar abt to complete
its like hanging man or doji…
whts the effect ??
seniors advice

EOD reversal?
Question to Rishi and tushar, above what level will the EOD reversal be, and why?

Remember EOD reversals are on pivots….
awaiting your reply :)

MJ-

well, i didnt look at nifty charts and not trading it but just said it so that people can be cautious…but if you guys, reversed to shorts on break of a PL, then definitely EOD reversal, otherwise look out for failed breakdown pattern…

Remember EOD reversals are on pivots….
awaiting your reply :)

MJ-

Gotcha….MJ i guess the minor pivot Kapil stated will be enough for reversal…….kindda confused :(

Kapil,ST where are the saviours ???

arrey,,,what happened to my post…it got deleted somehow…weird

Well we all know by now that EOD reversals are for
A> Fresh reversals
B> ON pivots

Today our reversal was NOT on a pivot so there shall be no EOD reversal above 3418. However we will reverse to longs above 3445 which is a PL.

So now we are short, if near closing we are above 3445 then we reverse to Longs….
Hope its clear.

Regards,
MJ-

Though we reversed below yesterday's 2pm bar-f and not the minor pivot we had yesterday, we can have EOD reversal if close is above 3445. But that is to be done just before the market close.

Kapil

Thanx :( my first trade in this flow is gonna be a looser :( also i cannot go long as well since i was not in the trade before………..

4 down bars thn this bullish bar.
5 bars in a particular trend, thn a stoppage.

3 pm bar is changing its pattern just like a "Chamaeleon"

now no fear of EOD reversal….

hope so….

Yes Vineet,…………we remain Short.

Saint

now no fear of EOD reversal….

vineet bhai was thinnking 3400 a very good level even today we halt there some time now broken …hope this trade go smoothly

Regards
Satya

First day went positive….i can now hope to ride the flow…….
Thanku all the seniors….Kapil, ST, MJ, bee, NF, Pc, satya, neeraj……..will seek support from you all to learn as i trade with patience……
hope to remain patient, as today experienced it from very close what the real time situation can do to you……but the golden words of patience, gear 1 trading helped to restrain from doing anything silly………

First da

y went positive….i can now hope to ride the flow…….
Thanku all the seniors….Kapil, ST, MJ, bee, NF, Pc, satya, neeraj……..will seek support from you all to learn as i trade with patience……
hope to remain patient, as today experienced it from very close what the real time situation can do to you……but the golden words of patience, gear 1 trading helped to restrain from doing anything silly………

Good going…Tushar and Milind….your first trade and market going your way…..Welcome to flow trading with real trades and Best Wishes…

Smart_trade

Best wishes tushar …. use the correct money management(MM) techniques and u will surely find sucess …
A small tip from my side :- trade inminifty first to gain more confidence :)

Keep flowing

Dear Saint and seniors,
In the flow now, thank you to saint and MJ for pointing out my mistake yesterday.Went back and learnt, request you rsupport for metushar and myslef so that we learn how to fish……

trading in minifty only saurabh…. :)

Though the sign seem ominous for tomm…..as +ve news triggering other markets up……

determined to be with the flow…….

SAR at 3pm bar high+f

Regards
Aravind

trading in mini nifty only, once confident can look for the big one.

Hello *,

Posting todays trades which I took.
Note: This is not to create confusion, but just would like to share how I did it.

Also posting chart of Nifty, Reliance, and BankNifty in this thread of Nifty. Sorry for that.

Kaiser.

Thanks Kaiser for charts.

I am little bit confused regarding the SAR for short positions mentioned (high of 1400 hrs bar). As per my understanding SAR should be 1500 hrs (3 PM) bar high+F.

Kaiser / Seniors please confirm

Regards

Muktha

Yes Muktha, SAR at the last pivot high i.e. 3pm bar high + f.

Kapil

As there has been excellent participation in the Nifty 60 min Flow, we are starting a new thread for the further posts. This thread is locked and from now on all the discussions should be carried out in that thread.

Here is the link to new thread

Kapil