Trading With The Flow!!!

Continuing the discussion here …

Link to previous thread

Kapil

Hi i am new to this forum..but God knows i have learnt immensely from mr.kapil.You are a trader in the real sense of the word.I have a small query.about when to shift SAR ie. when do we move SAR from LOD-mf if 15 min has yet not shown a pivot.This one query can reeally help me be better trader.If Saint sir or Mr. Kapil could reply i will be obliged.

Today was a tough day..but one thing is that according to the chart posted by Mr. Kapil long was triggered around 3665? but according to 10:30 +mf it should be around 3673.Am i wrong?

Bringing yesterday's trade to the front for continuity sake………hope everyone understood this day's trade.

Great stuff,Kapil.

To reiterate,this was a dull,boring and get nothing much sort of a day……..but it was not a multiple reversal and smashing us all over the place type of a day.If the latter was your day(saw many posters in TJ getting thrown about),then there is an error of understanding that needs to get rectified sooner rather than later.

Saint

Hi i am new to this forum..but God knows i have learnt immensely from mr.kapil.You are a trader in the real sense of the word.I have a small query.about when to shift SAR ie. when do we move SAR from LOD-mf if 15 min has yet not shown a pivot.This one query can reeally help me be better trader.If Saint sir or Mr. Kapil could reply i will be obliged.

Thanks for the kind words which I don't deserve though. Hope you have gone through the method details under School > Methods which can be accessed through the top navigation bar. We essentially follow 30 min charts and refer to other TFs only in specific cases, which are mentioned there in detail. Once we are in trade we use sf and not mf. Now if we do not have any pivots in 15 min, means we wont have any in 30 mins too, so we follow the 4 bar method.

Today was a tough day..but one thing is that according to the chart posted by Mr. Kapil long was triggered around 3665? but according to 10:30 +mf it should be around 3673.Am i wrong?

Long was triggered 3659+big filter. So, you are right that entry should have been around 3673, though it depends on the filters that one is using. Do not go by the exact levels where I mark those lines. The idea is to show above which bar the long was triggered and where the adds or reversals triggered. The idea is never to give the exact levels of the trades.

Kapil

gm to all,
NF
H - 3658
L- 3642

shifting mf to high of 10.30 bar & low of 10.00 bar

great going Prem.

after 11 am bar completed, no change in mf still 10.30 bar high for long & 10 am bar low for short. as per my understanding

kapil,
could we have taken long above 10.30 bar PH + sf or now we shift mf to 11.30 bar high for long entry ?

Prem, long would have triggered over 10.30 PH +sf

Kapil

ok..so when we get clear PH or PL we use sf. right?

ok..so when we get clear PH or PL we use sf. right?

Yes Prem.

kapil,
where add would trigger? i think 12.30 bar high

yes adds triggered above 12.30 high +add filter

can we consider 1 pm bar as WRB & move SAR at the low of it ?

1pm bar is not WRB. SAR still at the last PL - sf.

now we r short below 1 pm bar +sf

Simple day,Prem again on MiniFlow……yes,a reversal to short below 12:30 pm bar low,profits in the 3620-3630 area,and exit all at EOD.

Saint

Saint sir,kapil,

I was long today over 12.30 bar since i used moving filters…and then reversed at 1.00 pm bar low…
pls tell me where i went wrong..
waiting eagerly for the reply..

bijo

Bijo, We had a PH made by 10.30 bar. So long triggered at 10.30am high +sf. Again 12.30pm low was a PL, so short below that.

Kapil

Kapil

gm to all,
NF 5min
H - 3671.5
L - 3654

now mf shifted to high of 10.30 bar for long and low of 10 am bar for short

short in nifty

short was triggered on 11.30 bar when 10 am bar low - mf was taken out. SAR was 10.30 bar high +sf.
now what is the SAR ? or we reversed to long on 11.30 bar high ?

Prem,
we r still on short..sar hod for me

thanks bijo

Hi ,
Mr.Kapil can u please tell how cud v have optimally traded today?Also a request if you cud be online during market hours also…it helps to know we have a mentor.In my software 9:55-10:30 forms a single candle in 30 minute chart.so it becomes all the more necessary to confirm pivots etc.

Pooja

Today i entered short at 10 AM low -mf….Kept my SAR at HOD.Wanted to confirm did this SAR change anytime during the day and if yes when and where.I would be thankful if fellow traders can post 30 min bar levels during market hours…for someone like me trading without AMIBROKER IT WUD BE GR8 HELP

Pooja

Kapil

I have posted how miniflow would have been for the day. Yes, SAR was HOD for most of the day, before we got a pivot made by 2.30pm bar. So, we shift the SAR to high of this bar + sf. Since that stop was hit quite late in the day, we don't take the 2nd trade. So one short for day that was stopped out.

Kapil

Kapil

A snapshot of NF miniflow trade details for this year 2009 upto 8th May

Great day for NF MiniFlow today…….Simple short below first bar,and an add below 4th Bar…….Profits off at failed breakdown bar on 15,and a bounce off support.Rest at EOD.

Saint

Yes Sir,very good day for Miniflow guys today.:)

Kapil

Was a great day

Kapil

Hello Kapil,

The second adds have a terrible success ratio. Therefore, Saint had said that it is best to do them above clear pivots or wrbs, which happens rarely.

My question: The second add in the chart seems dicey to me. Should one absolutely take it?

I'm terrified of second adds… tend to look for really good reasons before making them.

Pls comment.

Amit,

It is as per individual plan. I personally take one add only. But since both the adds are over pivots, so the posted chart shows where 2nd add could have been taken.

Kapil

Hello Saint & Kapil,

Kapil thanks to you posting charting of Mini flow at EOD.

Regards
Wave Trader

The short triggered below the opening bar -sf.
Add triggered below PL formed by 10.30 bar low -add filter.
Reversed to long by 2 bar over 12o'clock bar + sf
Add for longs over 2pm bar high + add filter
Reversed to short again below the 2pm bar low -sf.
Was a tough day, but great going if you stuck to the plan.

Kapil

Thanks for the kind words Wave trader.

Hello Mr. Kapil,
Today almost everything happened perfectly except I hardly had any profit!!!!!!!!!Thats because I really dont know where to take profit .My short (first trade) was giving upward of 40 points.after which SAR was hit.Similarly Long was giving 45 points.I kept waiting.Should I keep a moderate target of 30-40 points? or wait for the big moves.Its very perplexing.Please help…Please.
Pooja

Madame… first of all you need to take it easy. You will not get there with this sense of urgency. The answers will come, but you need to relax first and let them come to you. Just my experience that I want to share.

Kapil,

One question… how was 2.00 bar low considered a valid pivot and a SAR point? Pls provide the reasons.

Thank you.

Jamit just trying to poke my nose…but i think 2 oclock break is acc.to 2 bar rule….i may be wrong but thats what I did today.Kapil jee,please correct me
Pooja

kapil,
today i did trade almost exactly as u shown in the charts. plz tell me whether my understanding about following points is correct or not
1) we used 2 bar rule to reverse to long over the high of 12 noon bar which triggered on 1.30 bar. is it correct ?

2) we again reversed to short on the break of 2 pm pivot low on 15min. am i right ?

Jamit just trying to poke my nose…but i think 2 oclock break is acc.to 2 bar rule….i may be wrong but thats what I did today.Kapil jee,please correct me
Pooja

Reversal below 2:00 low was not on 2 bars rule, you need to study the method correctly ,Pooja

Best wishes,

Smart_trade

kapil,
today i did trade almost exactly as u shown in the charts. plz tell me whether my understanding about following points is correct or not
1) we used 2 bar rule to reverse to long over the high of 12 noon bar which triggered on 1.30 bar. is it correct ?

2) we again reversed to short on the break of 2 pm pivot low on 15min. am i right ?

Correct Prem, We used 2 bar to reverse to longs (it coincided with a 15 min pivot high too), and reversed to shorts on break of 2 pm mini pivot / doji bar on 30 min, which was also a pivot on 15 min charts.

Kapil

Today almost everything happened perfectly except I hardly had any profit!!!!!!!!!Thats because I really dont know where to take profit .My short (first trade) was giving upward of 40 points.after which SAR was hit.Similarly Long was giving 45 points.I kept waiting.Should I keep a moderate target of 30-40 points? or wait for the big moves.Its very perplexing.Please help…Please.

Everyone has own rules for profit booking, some go by the points and some take off some profits at important resistances and supports. So, do adopt a method that suits your comfort.

Kapil

Kapil

Waiting for today's NF miniflow trades and chart from the seniors…..

ST

Pretty simple, long first 5 min bar + F, short low first 5 min bar - F. No trade so far, maybe we will get that first bar tomorrow. :)

lol ST/Flock

Saint

hehehe……..

1st 5 min bar is monster wrb of more than 300 points, cant take a trade on breakout of this bar as the SL will be too far. So skipped this trade.
Long triggered over PH made by 11.30 bar high + sf.
Add triggered over break of PH made by 12 bar +add filter
Then we have a reversal bar (the 13.30 bar) on almost all TFs. Book some of the longs.
Short below 2pm bar low-sf (15/60 TF confirm this).
Book profits at EOD as per individual plan.

Kapil

Kapil

Hello Mr. Kapil,
Wanted to confirm abouttrade on 20.05..Was 2:00 clock bar forming a 30 min PL or am I not getting the concept of pivot correct.Please clarify.Also was there a possibility of Adding in the morning Long trade.I thought there was a 15 min PH 11:30.Please help…waiting for reply.

Pooja

Wanted to confirm abouttrade on 20.05..Was 2:00 clock bar forming a 30 min PL or am I not getting the concept of pivot correct.Please clarify.Also was there a possibility of Adding in the morning Long trade.I thought there was a 15 min PH 11:30.Please help…waiting for reply.

The 2pm bar was part of sideways move that NF had in the afternoon session. The high and low of the sideways move can be considered as pivots. So, in that sense it was a pivot. In the long trade, we did not get any opportunity to add, as adds for longs are either above strong bullish bar of reasonable width with strong close or above pivots on 30 min charts. We do not add above 15 min pivots.

Kapil

Kapil

We had an upward breakout yesterday (21-5-2009) after 5 bars of sideways movement. This breakout failed and we could have reversed our long position to short on cracking of breakout bar's low even though the breakout bar was not a WRB, because the breakout was from a long consolidation. This would have given valid early reversal….

Just my view …..

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Thanks ST. Agree with you on the reversal point, and that bar is not a too small a bar to be ignored.

Kapil

Kapil

Today the short triggered below opening bar low-mf.
The 11 am bar on 30 min chart was doji, so we check the 15 min charts too. We go long over 15 min PH made by 10.30 bar high +sf
Next we again get a doji on 30 min charts (the 12 o'clock and 12.30 bar).
We again turn back to 15 min charts and go short below 12.30 bar low-sf on 30 min charts. This was also the PL on 15 min charts.
Profit booking as per individual plan.

Kapil

kapil , didn't you reverse to long at 15 min pivot at 13.45 with 2.30 bar(30min) bar is green bar with tails ?

vineet

kapil , didn't you reverse to long at 15 min pivot at 13.45 with 2.30 bar(30min) bar is green bar with tails ?

vineet

Vineet,

There was no clear TFA confirmation for this reversal. The 13:45 pivot was broken by 14:45 bar on 15 min and immediately earlier 14:30 bar on 30 min was a small body white candle which indicates nothing (if it was a long legged hammer or a strong white candle…things would have been different) and 14:00 candle on 60 is a bearish candle….

This probably is the reason why Kapil did not reverse above 13:45 PH on 15 min TF…..

Smart_trade

Vineet, ST has as always explained it beautifully.

Kapil

kapil, ST sir,
I understood yesterdays trade completely except going long over 10.30 min pivot high on 15 min chart. plz explain how it was a pivot because earlier 15 min bar had a higher high than this bar (this 15min bar was inside bar) , the next bar (10.45) was LL-LH than this bar.
I am not able to understand how it can be called a pivot ?
thanks in advance
regards
Prem

Kapil

Prem, Pivot is basically a point from where the price turns. Now if you look at the chart from that angle, you will understand why 10.30 bar was a pivot.
But you have to keep in mind that this pivot on 15 mins was taken only because we had a doji on 30 min charts.

Kapil

Thanks a ton Kapil…..crystal clear now…:)

Kapil

Kapil,

Some of us reversed to short at that 10:45 15 min pivot low seeing TFA with 30 min.
When that pivot was broken by the 12:30 (30 min) bar, the 12:00 bar (30 min) was already complete and it was bearish.

Was it not TFA?

Thanks.

Kapil,
I dont know what went wrong.I went short as my first trade exactly as Flock did.Upon that the real cause was that according to my terminal long never triggered.first 5 min was 4205—-4180…and 10:30 bar had 4218 as high.i thought long has not trig.This data thing is creating a problem very often.Can we a few like minded ones not share the data thru smsor yahoo msgr.just to share the data …please….

Pooja

we can post the levels of long , short and sar levels here…
but it can create confusions too..
if ony 1 or 2 peoples do that, thn it vl b good and clear
as kapil is posting here after market..
NR

Flock, a bearish bar does not mean a reversal bar. The price never goes up or down straight, and thats the reason that it makes pivots on the way up or down. For uptrend we need higher PLs, but to make this higher PL there will be bearish bars. But that does not mean reversal. Higher PL is a sign of uptrend. So, a bearish bar is never a sign of reversal. Till the time there is no hint from higher TFs like 30 or 60 that a reversal is coming, there is no need to refer to the 15 min charts.

Pooja, Let us see how the trade would have proceeded if it did not trigger on the opening bar high +mf because of maybe a larger filter.
10.30 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 10.30 bar high +mf and short below 10.30 bar low-mf
11.00 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 11 bar high +mf and short below 10.30 low - sf ( as this is our PL)
11.30 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 11.30 bar +mf and short below 10.30 low -sf
12 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 11.30 bar +sf (this is PH) and short below 10.30 low -sf.
12.30 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 11.30 bar +sf and short below 10.30 low -sf.
1.00 bar trade does not trigger. Now long over 11.30 bar +sf and short below 10.30 low -sf.
1.30 bar long triggers over the PH, and we are in longs now with stops at low of day -sf
Adds trigger in 3 pm bar on taking out the 1.30pm bar high.
Profit booking at EOD

Kapil

Thanks Kapil,wow post..will be very helpful….i am sure.
Pooja

Some people would have taken a short below 1.30pm bar low-sf, but if we look at 15 min chart, it is evident that it was a just a sideways move after a breakout and hence that bar could have been used for booking profit, but not for taking a short. For shorts, 12o'clock bar low was the correct place.

Kapil

Hey Kapil,

Thanks dude for all your valuable input, it really help new comer like me. I have few question if any senior member could answer based their own exp.

1) What is a Strike rate of this method in time span of 1,3, and 6 months?
2) What is R-R of this method?
3) What is maximum draw-down from equity peak?

I am not doubting on this method and Saint but these are few question came in my mind [sorry if i asked more than i have to]

Regards

Seems like one of those days with unilateral rise i.e., hold on to your longs till 3:25pm:):)
Bee

Hey Kapil,

Thanks dude for all your valuable input, it really help new comer like me. I have few question if any senior member could answer based their own exp.

1) What is a Strike rate of this method in time span of 1,3, and 6 months?
2) What is R-R of this method?
3) What is maximum draw-down from equity peak?

I am not doubting on this method and Saint but these are few question came in my mind [sorry if i asked more than i have to]

Regards

Best will be to backtest the method yourself for last few months. That way you don't have to listen to others views for the method, but can find out the answers to these questions and will give you a better understanding of the system. Once you have backtested the method, you can start testing it live.

Kapil

Kapil…why the short triggered below 2 PM bar when 1.30 bar is quite decent looking pivot ? Please explain.

Tushar, 2pm bar was a higher PL and gave us an early entry. The pivot almost coincided with the 15 min 1.30 pm breakout bar too. Besides this short would have triggered almost at EOD and must not have been taken by most. But the idea is also to protect the profits that we have had in the longs. So, if somebody was holding the position at that time, that was the time to exit.

Kapil

Hey Kapil,During trading hours today I was mulling over which bar to consider a trigger pt.for short.However pardon me saying but theoretically how does 2pm bar qualify as pivot?It is not bound by 2 HL bars.while 1:30pm bar is.I hope I am not sounding argumentative.

Anyhow it was a good flow trade day.

Pooja

**Some people would have taken a short below 1.30pm bar low-sf, but if we look at 15 min chart, it is evident that it was a just a sideways move after a breakout and hence that bar could have been used for booking profit, but not for taking a short. For shorts, 12o'clock bar low was the correct place.

Kapil**

Continuing with the query on 28 may why are you apprehending that anyone cud have gone short on 1:30 pm bar low..i mean what is the basis of anyone taking such a decision on 30 min .chart if at all.
Just confirming coz sometime this may be a vital info.

Pooja

Kapil,
Sorry to bother you with so many queries but looking at 29 may chart it seems 1:00,1:30 and 2:00 pm bar make a PH and I just added over it.Why is it not a PH with 2 bars around with LH? I am sorry but I really feel that I have lots to learn still.PLease help me like 4th grader.I have read and reread the school/method post on pivots.this still eludes me.

Ever thankful to you.

Pooja

Kapil,
Sorry to
bother you with so many queries but looking at 29 may chart it seems1:00,1:30 and 2:00 pm bar make a PH and I just added over it.Why isit not a PH with 2 bars around with LH? I am sorry but I really feel that I have lots to learn still.PLease help me like 4th grader.I have read and reread the school/method post on pivots.this still eludes me.

Ever thankful to you.

Pooja

Madam,

You need to go back to the theory part and get your concepts about pivot clear. That done you will have answers to lot of your questions and you need not "keep mulling" over which points to use to go short…….There are clear cut rules of this method please study them well,silent study and observation will help you lot more than Kapil or anyone else answering your questions…..

Good luck for your studies ….Best wishes….

Smart_trade

Pooja,

Besides what ST has suggested, go over all the charts in Miniflow and other threads. That will make the understanding of the things much better. That will make clear why I am calling some points as pivots which do not seem so to you. Because this can be explained better by the charts than in words. That will also answer your query regarding 28th May trades. Coming to your last query regarding the pivot on charts on 29th May, we already had an add and this pivot came after 8 up bars and was taken out by 3pm bar, which is almost when one is looking to book profits if not done already.

Kapil

Hi Kapil,

Please look at this chart the values shown in the top most lines are for that 2 PM bar, in my chart its high is greater than 1.30 bar(so 1.30 bar is not a clear PH as suggested by Pooja), yours and my chart look so different(especially this 2 PM bar), just need to know whether the range for this 2PM bar is same in your chart. The high-low is mentioned in my chart on the top most line. Please see and comment because if it is different then I have a grave problem of wrong data coming in my charts because of which I think I have already faced some problem in trading, I had compared one of my charts to Manoj's chart on TJ and they were different :(.

Tushar, The values are same as mine. They might be looking different because of different proportions of the x and y axis. It is a minor pivot, but we already had one add and for second add we need much more than a pivot of this kind.

Kapil

Thanks smart_trade ,Kapil,Tushar for the problem regarding PH.I agree with seniors that second add was not feasible at those levels…but all I wanted to confirm was whether a pivot formed or not.I am a newborn in this field.Sometimes a child smiles guessing 'A'for apple…later he realizes 'A' could be for several other things too.

Thanks for helping me through these baby steps.

Pooja

Hi Kapil, why long at 10th bar high+f ? My Sar was 12 pm bar high so went long above that. Did you take 12.30 bar as WRB and went long above that ?

Hi kapil, I am very new to this amazing 30 min flow.the entries to the first five minutes high & low with filters r great but i am not able to understand after the entries to long or short where should we book profit.if we take entries through 30 min flow, should we switch over to lower time frame chart to book profits becouse in this trading world what is in your pocket at the end of the day which counts.As i respect a lot to the great teacher saint and i will be glade to get the answer from your side

Hi Kapil, why long at 10th bar high+f ? My Sar was 12 pm bar high so went long above that. Did you take 12.30 bar as WRB and went long above that ?

Tushar, It is a small pivot on 30 min charts, which is very clear on 15 min charts .

Kapil

Hi kapil, I am very new to this amazing 30 min flow.the entries to the first five minutes high & low with filters r great but i am not able to understand after the entries to long or short where should we book profit.if we take entries through 30 min flow, should we switch over to lower time frame chart to book profits becouse in this trading world what is in your pocket at the end of the day which counts.As i respect a lot to the great teacher saint and i will be glade to get the answer from your side

For booking profit, everybody has own method and you can make one for yourself. Like you can book part when you get profits equal to initial risk, another part at two times the risk and hold the rest till EOD or reversal. Or if you are comfortable with marking the supports and resistances, you can book at part of profits at important levels if price stalls there.

Kapil

Hi to all,
I am new to your forum but involved in intraday trading of Nifty futures for sometime now.I have been trading break of 15 min and 30 minute pivots for long….Never knew an entire method(and far better) has been devised .Hats off to Saint sir.

I saw your chart Kapil,just clarifying at what levels did you book profit in the short trade?What I do is that I switch to 5 min charts and book my profit at a counter move pivot break.

If you have another method….can you please share it.
Sidharth

Kapil,

Please, can we have a discussion on TFA. After last discussion with ST on TJ, we concluded that TFA is reversing or entering on a very clear 15 min pivot, if the higher time frame (30) has the last completed bar in the direction of our intended entry / reversal. The only exception to this is when an hourly bar is due in a few minutes, in which case we wait for it to complete. Once complete we use that for the entry / reversal if the 15 min pivot is already broken. If the 15 min pivot still holds and the latest 30 bar still supports our direction we enter or reverse on the pivot.

Will be very grateful if this thing is ironed out.

Thanks

Sure Flock, we can have a discussion in case you have any doubts. TFA is essentially given under Time Frame Trading under School > Methods > Intraday Miniflow Trade > The Method..

It is not every clear pivot on 15 min chart that we take entry on. Otherwise we could be trading all clear pivots on 15 min charts instead of using a 30 min chart. We use or I will say refer to 15 min charts only in specific cases as are mentioned there.

Kapil

A warm welcome to you Sidharth. For profit booking, in yesterdays chart 1/3rd was booked at about 1:1 RR i.e. when we had profits equal to initial risk, now we had a huge breakdown bar (where we took the adds). Next bar made a lower low, but closed bullish. So closed complete position when its high was taken out.

Kapil

Kapil,
Earnestly waiting for today's chart/trade.

Thanks for the welcome and reply. Sharing an observation …whenever a 15 min pivot high and low (stop loss) aare more than 45 points apart there's very high chance of breakdown or breakout failure.Not trying to add subjectivity to the trade but helps when we do TFA trading.
Sidharth

Kapil,where are you? Waiting for today's chart …today being my first day of flow trading

God,my wife would give her right hand to see the day I wait for her mail this badly.he he he…..just kidding

Sidharth

lol Sidharth, here is today's chart

Kapil

Thanks Kapil
I had the same trades as these however did not have the nerve to stay till EOD.booked at 4556.Guess I still have to develop good fins to swim with the flow till the end.

Lets see tomorrow.

Sidharth

Sure Floc

k, we can have a discussion in case you have any doubts. TFA is essentially given under Time Frame Trading under School > Methods > Intraday Miniflow Trade > The Method..

It is not every clear pivot on 15 min chart that we take entry on. Otherwise we could be trading all clear pivots on 15 min charts instead of using a 30 min chart. We use or I will say refer to 15 min charts only in specific cases as are mentioned there.

Kapil

Kapil,

I wasn't talking about taking an unconditional entry or reversal on every clear 15 min pivot.

That particular section in school talks mostly about reversal patterns with some examples of such patterns. Does not talk about any rule for a 15 minute pivot. When to consider an entry or reversal at a 15 min pivot is still a grey area. Maybe you or somebody else could post a few charts where a 15 minute pivot was used for an entry or a reversal on TFA. That should make things a little more clear.

Thanks

Flock.

Flock, its all there. Basically its all about reversing at the right place. Like if there is no hint of reversal in 30 min charts, why do we even bother to look at 15 min charts. A bullish bar when we are short is not a reversal sign. Now, lets say we suddenly get a hammer on 30 min charts while we are short, look at 15 min charts, do we have higher pivot lows or evidence of a failed breakdown etc or a sideways pattern.

Kapil

Hello Kapil,

Do you book profit? If so at what points? Daily resistance lines or hourly or otherwise?

Long hit…

For today 4650 ish is a strong resistance and hence a profit booking level… and also coincides with our 1:1

Amit, I think Saint has already talked about profit booking in a recent post. Quoting him :

As for the Profit taking part……different advice for different ppl.For you I would say that,take it all the way and get out when pivot breaks. To someone starting off new,I would say that at least take off 1/3 at 1.5x(if x is stop from entry),etc……..and to the slightly aggressive guy,I might say that take it to a point of resistance,then take off some(what stiff resistance is,think I should cover later).If it then goes on to newer highs,then get back in again.

As for me I do mark resistances and supports from hourly charts. But if one is not comfortable drawing S/R then there will be lines all over the chart and there could be problems.

Kapil

OFF TOPIC:
Duh… I missed this post!! Such an important one… could you please post the link for the post from which the above paragraph was extracted. Was it here or TJ?

I want to know who is "you". Cuz I too prefer holdg all positions till eod. Cuz profit booking sometimes goes against us. Moreover, if the market reverses then we have TFA takes care of atleast 50% of the cases…. besides, for trend traders it is against the vein to NOT use trailing stops.

Amit This is the link

From the navigation menu go to Forums > Recent Posts and then click on expanded view. This will show all recent posts in all forums. That will keep you updated on every post.

Kapil

Kapil,

Does TFA kick-in in such a situation. We have taily 30 and 60 min… and 15/10 min has made sort of a double top. Although, we'd prefer a lower PL.

amit.. you are long or short ?

vineet

Am holding short positions.

Consider the earlier question as an academic one. Hence, for the ones who are long, they could SAR there, right?

okie…just querieng why u are looking at higher PL if u are short??

understood now

vineet

Long, then short, now long again… :) I used to like theme parks and rollercoaster rides… but not anymore.

Flock, i

ts all there. Basically its all about reversing at the right place. Like if there is no hint of reversal in 30 min charts, why do we even bother to look at 15 min charts. A bullish bar when we are short is not a reversal sign. Now, lets say we suddenly get a hammer on 30 min charts while we are short, look at 15 min charts, do we have higher pivot lows or evidence of a failed breakdown etc or a sideways pattern.

Kapil

Kapil,

So sorry for being a pest :-) But I am after you people because it is very essential to have absolute clarity on this. Most of us juniors are not clear on this. This is not just my reading. Saint Sir is also of the same opinion.

If you give the dates for which charts should be posted, I will do the chart posting job, because that will make things easier to understand.

1. Ok so we are short, we have a sideways pattern or a higher pivot low on 15 min, and 30 mins is a hammer, followed by a hammer again, or a hanging man, or a doji.
Now where should the SAR be. Lets assume that none of the 15 min pivots are coinciding with the top of a 30 min bar.

Thanks
Flock.

The last short trade was on the basis of breakout failure. Rest is all clear in the charts.

Kapil,
I watched Rocky Balboa movie last night…never knew I wud be punched up and down so many times worse than what they showed in the movie.But seriously,I have never had a worse day than this one.
It was long first,then reversed to short,then long again……..and again short..whew! what a day….a few more like this and I am going to hold a condolence meeting for intraday traders.

God…please don't give us such a market..Amen.

Waiting for your chart..as usual

Sidharth

Kapil,

Does TFA kick-in in such a situation. We have taily 30 and 60 min… and 15/10 min has made sort of a double top. Although, we'd prefer a lower PL.

At the time of your post the reversals as per 15 min and 30 min would have been same. They had pivots at the same points. Now coming to last trade, the breakout failure was evident from both TFs.

Kapil

Flock, Can you please let me know the date of such a scenerio when we are short and have higher PLs on 15 min and a hammer etc on 30 min and the pivots dont match with 30 min charts. Then I will be able to explain it better.

In most of the cases 15 min pivots will match with the highs and lows of 30 min. The question is not whether PH matches with 30 min high or not, the question is was there a hint from higher TFs to make us look at 15 min charts.

Kapil

Sidharth, such days are bound to come. So, it is better if we are prepared to take this type of days in our stride. Thats the reason all of us give importance to MM etc. In trading some days are some losses, some days are BE and some days we make big gains from the market. This process still keeps us in profits.

Chart is already posted above your post.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil,
I am sure I have learnt my lessons well…I have identical entries and exits as yours.So nothing to worry..

Sidharth

HI KAPIL,IT WAS A SUPERB DAY PUNCHED LIKE A PUNCHING BAG,KAPIL I WANT TO KNOW THAT IN FIRST FIVE MINUTES CANDLE HIGH AND LOW YOU R USING 14 POINT FILTER OR 7 POINT FILTER.IN THE CHARTS WHICH R SHOWNING IT IS LOOKING THAT U R USING 7 POINT FILTER OR 5 POINT FILTER.PLEASE BRIEF.THANKS

Gitesh, Don't go by where those lines are marked. It is just to show which break would have triggered the trade without bothering much about the exact levels.

Great going Sidharth.

Kapil according to above trades: your mf looks small but the subsequent filter looks even smaller like its between 6-7 ?? I know it is a entirely personal call but that feels too less when I back tested. You are a senior member, could you telll me how u decide on your mf/sf ? My idea is I go back to 2 month chart and listed down all the failed trades of sf and mf separately and choose the highest filter which save me from 80% of those trades for each filter. If I see my value it is much larger than yours. Could you please tell how you determine it because it looks I am over conservative if so small filters are used by you.
I know i was saved for the first long trade on this particular day because of my large filters but may be I am wrong in calculating the filter vis-a-vis risk/reward.

Tushar, As I have already mentioned that trades shown just indicate that a trade was triggered and not the filter size. Do not try to calculate filters value from the charts being posted.

Kapil

I think this filter problem is energy sapping at its best .14/7 is good enough..when patterns have to fail…they do.no questions asked.You know Nifty is traded by big sharks when they trade they will reverse the flow of money anytime so best thing to do is keep 14/7 filters this way you wont miss big trades atleast. Be brave.My personal view….Kapil however can correct me.

Sidharth

Hello Kapil,

The last week has not been one of the best as far as profits are concerned. Hope the market is more forgiving this week.

Amit

Hi Folks,

Have shorted and added… so far so good. One big day will cover the losses of last week and another will cause profits. Nonetheless, we trade… heave-ho

it's great to see mini flow is working great.first short at 4566,second add at 4554,third add at 4517 it great to see this,but kapil 30 min flow is great in trending market upward or downwards,but i want to know what a person should do when the market is range bound,in that case which trading techineque to follow eg. yester day means friday was this kind of day.thanx in advance

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Kapil would be not available for the next few days, and I would be posting the miniflow trades in his absence.
A simple day today….Short at opening bar low. Add to it below the congestion low. Profit booking as per individual plan.

Puneet

hello punit

Hi Gitesh,

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long at opening bar high..an add later..exit eod as per plan.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long at opening bar high..sideways thereafter, so nothing to be done..with stops at 12pm low on the hourly chart. Exit eod as per plan.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Short at opening bar low…Add to it on break of P low. Cover and Long at the break of hourly high of the resting bar. Booking as soon as the bar reverses without challenging the days highs.

Puneet

Hello puneet sir,

In this above chart what is 1:1RR for booking profits

I have observed that Mini flow usually puts us in the right direction of the market. If we are in the right direction, the trade achieves a 25 pts profit at least. If trade reverses after that it is likely to be a choppy day. If it reverses before this it means that the first trade direction is wrong, and we take the reversal. If that too reverses before 25 pts are achieved, it is not Mini flow day. Simple

Copyright violation :-D

Any reason for copying this here?

Gitesh,
1:1 risk reward means booking profits when the market moves the same direction in ur favour as the points your risked in that trade.

Suppose you enter long at 4500 with stops at 4475….meaning you r risking 25 points in this trade. now as per 1/1 r/r profit booking…..you would be booking profits at 4500+25.

Same goes for shorts. Hope it is clear now.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long at 10.30 bar high. Reverse below the resting bar low. Add to it at pivot break..sq off eod as per plan.

Puneet

hi puneet..

i had a query about reversing at 11.30 bar low …acc to rules resting bar concept comes in force if we have a brakedown \brakeout after long consolidation …so do you considered first 2 bars of chart as consolidation ?

is there any change in rule which i miss ?

i think consolidation should be like 21-05-09

thanx

vineet

Yes Vineet, I took the 2 bar range as consolidation. No change in rules as such, just a matter of perspective I guess….took an aggrersive trade looking at the price behavour around 4600 range in last 2-3 days.

Puneet

Hi Puneet,

Just one doubt…. Though we consider 11.00 as breakout bar, but still the next bar (11.30 ), resting bar, have not negated more than 50% of that BO bar. As per my knowledge, we reverse only if BO bar get negated by more than 50%.

As you have already mentioned that you was aggressive in reversing looking at some other aspects. I want to know if one would not be aggressive, then was that right point to reverse ( as per rules).

Thanks and regards
Manoj

Manoj,
In that case…..Low of the 12pm bar would have been the turning point. However, at 11am, the stops shd have been kept at WRB Low.

Puneet

Thanks a lot Puneet for clarifying the doubt. So considering that 12.00 bar low to reverse, finally, one would have reversed on 2.30 bar ( crack of 1.30 bar low = 4521- SF) as we did not got entry on subsequent bars due to moving filters.

Thanks and regards
Manoj

Manoj,
12pm bar low=4538.

Suppose I take a filter of 8 (just for example).

Now…the same got hit in the 1.30 bar. Not moving the stops bar by bar…thats only in the first move. I will wait for 4538-8 to be hit on any bar..provided a lower pivot low has not been formed.

Thanks,

Puneet

Thanks once again … Puneet. Sorry to bother you again and again….So you mean to say we don't reverse our entry on moving filter bar by bar. This moving filter concept is for first entry only. Is it right? I was not knowing that. I think Vineet had also reversed his entry on moving filter concept.

Ok… we will discuss more at EOD as it is market opening time.

All the best for todays trade to all …

Best Wishes
Manoj

Yes Manoj, this is what I do.

Mov Fil only for the First move..or we get higher/lower pivots with filters saving their triggereing.

Puneet

Thank you Puneet….
Manoj

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long at opening bar high. Add to it at pivot break..sq off eod as per plan.

Puneet

Hi All,

Coming to the forum after a month or so as I was out of station.

Shorted nifty today at 10.00 low - f.

Would you now consider 11.00 or 11.30 high as SAR or SAR remains day high +f?

Appreciate if someone helps.

Mukund

Sorry, read your post late. Stops at Days high at this moment.

Puneet

Thanks, Puneet!

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Short at opening bar low. Reverse to Long above pivot break. Again Short on BO failure…..and Add below the pivot break. Booking eod as per plan.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long above opening bar high (could have been saved for people using wider filter). Reversal to Short on break of opening bar lows. Long on days high being taken out thereafter….and reversal again to Short below pivot lows.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Short below the opening bar low….add below pivot low break. Covering eod as per plan.

Puneet

Hi Puneet,
I wish to know how do you maintain patience to hold till EOD ….amidst so much fluctuations .Are you not scared of giving away all your gains.I mean one reversal 30 min bar can really take away all ur day work

Sidharth

Hi Sidharth,
Thats where position sizing helps Sidharth……helps maintain balance in mind and stomach. Also…you can book profits at either resistance levels or at 1:1/1:2 risk reward etc.

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Long above the opening bar high….add at pivot break. Covering eod as per plan.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Short below the 10.30 bar low….Reversal to Longs on pivot break. Add to it at HOD and cover eod as per plan.

Puneet

Miniflow Trades for Today:

Short below the 10.30 bar low….Reversal to Longs on pivot break. Add to it at HOD and cover eod as per plan.

Puneet

Sorry didnt know how to put quotes…but any how Puneet which pivot are we refeering to here…can you please clarify.At least a clear visual pivot is not apparent.

Sidharth

Sidharth,

Select the text that you want to quote,copy-paste into "new post",and go to Q and click it.

Saint

Sidharth,

Use multiple timeframe analysis,that same point where Puneet reversed to longs shows up on the 15,20mins clearer,…………on the 30 that's all we need,that one bearish candle to look at multiple timeframes,and reverse our original direction.

Saint

Sidharth,

Use multiple timeframe analysis,that same point where Puneet reversed to longs shows up on the 15,20mins clearer,…………on the 30 that's all we need,that one bearish candle to look at multiple timeframes,and reverse our original direction.

Saint

quoted text

Saint sir,its getting confusing …..when to see multiple time frames…when not?Can you please give us a crash course of revision in this method…please.The variations coming up in real trades are perplexing as compared to that given in METHODS/SCHOOL

Sidharth

OOPS….couldn't use quotes as saint sir had suggested…Guess I am not a good student .That is why making many mistakes in flow method.
But I will learn…surely

Sidharth

Sidharth,

You have to select the text to be put in quote and then press Q button.
You can try the edit facility to try this out.

Bee

Back after a long break. There has been lots of activity across various threads. Need to catch things up.

Kapil

Hello kapil,welcom back after long time

Kapil

Kapil

This week has been deep in the red… lets see how the rest of the month goes.

Some of us have updated the filter values. It is largely helping us with the whipsaws. However, there are a few other problems like spurt-entries or suitable profit booking strategy which are still somewhat unsolved (for we amateurs).

Continuing the discussion in new thread..

Link to the new thread

Kapil