Trading With The Flow!!!

Continuing the discussion here …

Link to the previous thread

Kapil

Trades for July 6, 2009

Kapil

Hi,
What will be the current entry as per 30 min flow

Hi,
What will be the current entry as per 30 min flow

Current entry would be short triggered below the opening bar low -mf

Kapil

Thanks

SL would be HOD+F?

yes SAR would be HOD + sf

Ok.

Trades for July 7, 2009

Kapil

Hi All just wanted to say as we trade mini flow here we need volatility in intraday basis …….. AW10 has a nice concept of contraction/Expansion in his thread NR7 can we borrow some concepts from there again we can also try out after a consolidaion in 60 min chart after break out how it behaves in intraday basis ??

Just a view

Regards
Satya

Great to see your post in this thread Satya. It would be great if you could post in brief about the concepts, and all of us can exchange ideas/views regarding the same. We can have a separate thread for that purpose. I am sure that would be good learning for all of us.

Regards,
Kapil

Hi Kapil Bhai no need to start a separate thread just wanted to find out high success rate days ……… while going thru AW10 thread on NR7 in TJ thought it it is a nice idea can be implimented with mini flow …………

Regards
Satya

Satya, we are always eager to learn. Do share your thoughts with us on the ideas and we can learn and check things out.

Regards,
Kapil

Trade for July 08, 2009

Kapil

Trade for July 09, 2009

Kapil

Trade for July 10, 2009

Kapil

I wonder why there has been relatively less participation in this thread of late .Even Kapil is not very active.I suppose last 1 month has been difficult for this method…but then in the world of trading one thing that comes closest to Holy Grail has been this method.Hope we all have an active thread.Kapil please lead us…………
Sidharth

I wonder why there has been relatively less participation in this thread of late .Even Kapil is not very active.I suppose last 1 month has been difficult for this method…but then in the world of trading one thing that comes closest to Holy Grail has been this method.Hope we all have an active thread.Kapil please lead us…………
Sidharth

I am posting on this thread on daily basis as ususal. Yes last month as I was out of town, so could not post for few days.

Kapil

Trade for July 13, 2009

Kapil

Thanks a lot Kapil… You are doing a great job of posting daily trades EOD with graphs. It will helps to analyze our trades at EOD.

Thanks once again.

Best Regards
Manoj

Kapil,a few minor differences……..

My charts,the first bar looks a bit different……taking your chart,we have a pivot after 4 candles,then a breakdown.So,small filters come into play,and a shorts trade is triggerred at 3920.

Then at CANDLE 6,we get a bottoming tail doji and also in the 60min charts and a previous pivot high on the 15min charts all corresponding to 3938.

Trade 1 short,half withdrawn once we get that formation on all charts……..then come out of the back half and reverse longs at 3945,over the doji on the 60.

Saint

Thanks Saint for the correction..

Since 3rd and 4th bars were inside bars of the 2nd bar, so did not consider that as a pivot at that time. Will take care of this type of situations

Kapil

thanx a lot saint …

Kapil nice observation about inside bars….Thank you Saint for providing the trades feedback…

Most welcome Kapil,Vineet,Tushar

Trade for July 14, 2009

Today after the 1st long trade, the reversal to shorts (below 4th bar low) was saved because of filter, but if anybody's trade triggered, then the trades would have been slightly different. The reversal to long would have been at the place which is marked as ADD 1 in the fig, with first Add getting triggered over 8th bar high and the 2nd add over 10th bar high.

Kapil

Kapil, can u tell the filters, because it doesnt seem filter would be so small to take the first trade u mentioned above the difference between two highs is 4.2 points, that means the entry is moved to this 5th bar high, then above pivot high over 6th bar….then add above breakout bar which is 8th bar(a little subjective here, whether we can call kit breakout bar)….please tell about the filters…

Kapil , it looks like you didn't shift entry from bar to bar …

means 11.00 bar high is 4065 & 11.30 bar high is 4069…so long can't be triggered in that so next long should be 4069+sf..

am i right ?

thanx

We already had a PH made by the 10.30 bar (high being 4065) and used small filter over that. Once we have a pivot, we don't shift entry bar by bar.
But yes, if you don't have a pivot in your charts, then entry is to be moved bar by bar. And in that case trade would have triggered only above the 6th bar high (PH) + sf.

Kapil

We already had a PH made by the 10.30 bar (high being 4065) and used small filter over that. Once we have a pivot, we don't shift entry bar by bar.
But yes, if you don't have a pivot in your charts, then entry is to be moved bar by bar. And in that case trade would have triggered only above the 6th bar high (PH) + sf.
quoted text

Dear Kapil, I think it is bar by bar entry in Miniflow even it is a pivot. Saint Sir please clarify if I am wrong.

Regards
Manoj

Manoj, once a pivot is formed we start trading these pivots and don't move the stops bar by bar, but we shift it pivot by pivot.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil for your clarification. But I have this doubt as Saint Sir answered it to me few months back for my query on this issue. Quoting his explanation for reference.

Quote : Saint : Correct,Manoj…..except one thing.

Pivot by Pivot move of MovFil:We apply this in the 60min Flow Threads.We have a Bar that takes out our pivot high not taking out our filter……next bar does it,we reverse the trade.If next bars don't do it,followed by a pivot formation,we merely raise our filter to the new pivot high +f.

Bar by Bar move of MovFil:We apply this in the Intraday MiniFlow.We have a Bar that forms,we want that next bar to take out the MovFil….If not,we want the next bar to do it,so on so forth.In between this process,a pivot or two may be formed….but the focus is on the bar by bar.

Slight difference in the two……important not to get confused esp.those who tarde both simultaneously.

Manoj, Just go through Saint's post regarding July 13th trades. A short below the PL -sf (and not below 4th bar low -mf). Also go through examples given in methods in this site.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil… Still have confusion.certainly will have to look for it and get it clarified..Will do it EOD.

Regards
Manoj

Trade for July 15, 2009

Kapil

Trade for July 16th, 2009

Kapil

Trade for July 17th, 2009

Kapil

Trade for 20th July 2009

Kapil

Trade for July 21, 2009

Kapil

Hi Kapil,

Had a query abt todays trade. The sixth bar was a breakdown bar and the seventh bar was a bullish bar. now the 8th bar takes out the highs of the seventh. Isn't this considered a failed breakdown pattern. As such shouldnt we reverse above the high of the seventh bar + sf. I am new to this method and just trying to understand every aspect.

Thanks

Kishy,

There are few things to take care of when considering a failed breakdown pattern. Is the breakdown or breakout happening from a consolidation/ range. If yes, then yes we do not want the price to come back in the range and employ the failure pattern. Now when talking about break of pivots, if we look at chart it just made lower PHs and lower PLs, so does not look like a failure pattern. Now the question is then when do we use this pattern in case of a pivot break, the breakout or breakdown bar should be of significant width, not exactly wrb, but should not be a small bar.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil Got it

Trades for July 22, 2009

Long triggered over opening bar high +mf
Add over 2nd bar high + add filter.
Reversed to shorts below 3rd bar low -sf (corresponds to the 15 min pivot low)
Adds below 7th bar low -add filter
Profit booking as per individual plan.

Kapil

Trades for July 23, 2009

Kapil

Thanks Kapil for your posts on Miniflow…Helps new learners to Miniflow…

Adil

Hi Kapil,
Where and how can I get EOD charts of nifty future…30 min,60min charts.Can you please tell how to get amibroker charts .I want only for EOD analysis.

Sidharth

Hi sidharth ,

you can get 30 min & 60 min charts from Investbulls.com ..here is link for that

http://investbulls.com/e107_graph/IntraDayCharts.php

hope it helps..

vineet

Hi Kapil,

You are doing a fabulous job of putting miniflow charts, everyday I come back to see the summarised version of my day today and whether I have done justice to the system. It gives me great confidence to see when the trades match :)

One request to you, if you could also mark the movement of SAR's then the charts will be more helpful, because in this system SAR is like the "laxman rekha", one should be able to sort this out before even getting into the trade or taking adds. So please mark SAR's.

Thanks,
Tushar

Short triggered in nifty ….

looks like a TFA at 15 min PH at 10.45..

added to short position..

Yes Vineet….great going!

Saint

Trades for July 24, 2009

Kapil

Hi Kapil How is 3rd bar high considered a pivot high

Thanks Vineet…that was exactly what i was looking for.

Sidharth

hi kishy ..that SAR is due to TFA (time frame amalgamation )..

we got PH in 15min TF at 10.45… & 30 min & 60 min bar agrees to it ..

hope its clear now…

Kapil,
One question keeps arising over and over again in miniflow…as to how to protect our profits.

In today's trade The first short trade+adds were doing great .Nifty touched a low of about 4510 about 50 points in profit…Our reversal came around 4550…that means a loss of 40 points in profit.

On a fiercely trending day miniflow is like magic…even one turn in the market robs of most of the profit..Are you seniors doing something different ie. to protect your profits?

On the contrary when I decide that i will take a fixed points target (30-40) I have known days Nifty moving 100 odd points.

Can you please help?
Sidharth

Hello Sidharth,

Good question…..let me attempt to answer.In miniflow we recommend booking part profits (1/3rd or so) when you get profit equal to our initial risk in the trade.Our initial risk is normally 35-40 points and with 50 points profit,we must book part of our position.

On days when the markets reverse ,we are better off by taking some profits off….and when they dont and trend till the end,we have our 2/3 position to give us a bumper day….we have a win-win situation.

Kapil,….you may add your thoughts to the above…..

Best wishes,

Smart_trade

Sidharth,

Though ST has already answered your question, wanted to add this
"Its called Miniflow.. because we do not take the complete flow….Its MINI… book your profits as and when you like..do not always wait for the SAR to be hit".

Regards,
Prasun

Dear all Seniros,
I have a query on 24th July trades. Was it not right to reverse on 1.00 bar high + SF yesterday due to TFA ? ( TFA : If we see previous 2 candles before 1.00 PM, there was an bullish engulfing pattern for which we can also say that it was failed PL breakdown pattern as 12.30 bar negated entire 12.00 PL breakdown bar…actually this alone is sufficient reason to reverse, I think+ 1.00 bar (30 min) was hammer with long bottoming tail indicating bullishness + 60 min 1.00 bar is bullish with tail which have almost negated more than 75% body of the previous 60 min bar with little bit increased volume + sideways pivot on 15.. although weak).

Please give your opinion…

Thanks and regards
Manoj

Thanks Vineet for answering my query

Manoj, Whether it is going to be a breakdown failure or just a new lower PH is difficult to say. So, for breakdown failures we look at the kind of breakdown bar we have had, had it been a wide bar or breakdown from a long sideways, would have surely looked at breakdown failure. Now, talking about hammer with long tail, such bars hold importance only when the low of such bar is the low of day, otherwise does not mean much.Now, in this case the low of day was made by 12.30 bar. Here we are trading 30 min charts with the help of 15 min charts, so such sideways pivots are not of much help here.

The idea is to keep the things simple and profitable. So, we avoid micromanaging the trades, otherwise any 10 point move in opposite direction of our trade will make us tense and we will tend to take wrong decisions.

Kapil

Sidharth, ST has already taken care of your query. Nothing more to add actually. So as ST has said, it is always wise to have a mix. Like book some at fixed target such as when the profit is equal to initial risk or fixed points, then you can book some at lets say when profits are double of the initial risk, but do hold part till EOD or till reversal. This takes care of two very important challenges in trading : one to keep the mind stable and other to ride the complete trend and not to miss the big days.

Kapil

I remember the discussion with saint on initial days as he always insists on profit booking is as per individual's.
As ST, kapil said, u can try entry risk as profit booking zone..
ST has posted on trade with oscillators, that is also intersting stuff.

Thanks a lot Kapil for your valuable suggestion and opinion.

Regards
Manoj

short triggered in NF..

add triggered below 12.00 bar low ….

Asalam valekum Vineet bhai…. sab khairiyat.

First add came through.

PS: Was really glad that the order/transaction problem got sovled well in time.

valekum Asalam.. amit ..

nice to see your you here..

SAR still at 12.30 bar high + SF

can we move SAR to 13.30 bar of 15min after 2pm ? I think TFA is there 30min hammer and 60min is also green bar.

Agreed Manoj.

The current 15 min formation is more like a horizontal congestion types. Not a convincing pivot.

Pls comment V-bhai <hope you won't mind us calling you with this new name. Since it is short it will eliminate mistakes that so many of us make in typing your name correctly :) >

sar at ph in 15 min at 13.30

TFA looks good ..

amit, vineet looks more logical ..nearly same no of words ..

Vineet bhai,

Is it correct that we do not consider horizontal pivots in 15mins tf for SAR?

yes , we can use them ..

they must be clear in showing area of support / resistance…

Trades for July 27, 2009

Kapil

Kapil the second SAR green line is 12.30 bar high + f or 1 PM bar high + f ? It is relevant because of Amit posted on TJ tht he will be taking 12.15 bar high as SAR, though it was not clear TFA to me, it was breakdown bar high which I kept as SAR…..

Tushar the 2nd SAR green line is 12.30 pm bar high +sf. It is a small pivot on 30 min and a pivot on 15 min too. The difference between these two (this Pivot High and breakdown bar high) was small, so kept the SAR at this point.

Kapil

Hi to all,
First i wish to thank kapil,Smart_trade,Prasun in helping me with the problem of profit booking.One trader helping another so much—-HAPPENS ONLY IN TRADERSAINT DOT COM.

What i noticed today was somewhere Kapil had mentioned about taking profits at important supp/res levels on 60 min charts.According to this 4515 levels form the lower end and 4590-4600 levels form the upper end of an ever extending channel…and Nifty is consistently honouring this channel.
<If anyone cud tell me how to post images,i would love to share it with all>

This way we may be in a position to get a fairer view of targets.
Sidharth

Sidharth here you can read about posting charts at TS:-
http://tradersaint.com/forum/t-138823/how-to-post-a-chart-image-in-the-forum-at-tradersaint-com

Sidharth

sidharth ..do you want to draw these channels ?

vineet

Thanks Vineet,someday i will become net savvy too..Amen!
You have drawn exactly what I wanted to.
Sidharth

short triggered in NF …

Dear guys,
All seniours and commandos are here .so I am left mini on TJ and IN here TS

Regards
VJAY

good to have you here VJAY…

add at 1st 30min bar low-af

1st add triggered

very right hvt..

good going…

Vineet bhai,

Significant levels for today, at which we could take some money out are 4520, 4450, 4387

These are levels as the hourly chart. Are they correct? If not then pls advice.

Ps: Will be learning the advanced step of booking profit at correct places.

Thank you.

vineet ji just learned from u n other guys by going through previous post

amit ..at 4520 the 1:1 r:r will be level to booked ,so it can be used ..other then that lets see what market have for us ..as this is nr-4 day , i am looking for big day ..

HVt , my friend we all learn this from saint ..

so the whole credit goes to him ..thanx

1:1 r:r ??/
what is it?????//

ya i learned the method from Saint but practical application through this thread only n the participants

HVT , we book 1/3 of position when we have profit equal to initial risk when trade triggered..

today suppose short trigg. at 4560 & SAR is at 4602..so risk is of 42 points ..so when we have profit equal to 42 pts . we cover 1/3 of our position ..

hope it helps..

Dear vineet,
Hammer with tail on 30!! any warning here?

Oh it's doji!!!!

Regards
VJAY

may be vjay but my sar remain at hod +fil …

pl help sugests som e sl at curent level

after i add my average rate is 4550 n initial position is of rate 4559 so should take 1/3 at 4550-42 or 4559-42?????????

no hvt …not these levels

covering may be at 4559-42=4517 or near to that ..

sudden charge in NF..seems 10.45 bar is a pivot…chances of reversal ?

may be vjay but my sar remain at hod +fil …

Great going Vineet………:)

Saint

sathia , the pivot may be on 15 min but we don't reverse on 15 min pivot only, we want confirmation from higher time frames too…

so sar for now remain at hod + fil …

Two 30 min taily and marginally bullish bars. This setup looks ripe for TFA now. Waiting for a 15 min PH formation.

Vineet bhai, pls confirm.

we may get 15 min ph at 11.30 bar high but prefer to wait till 12.00 to get 60 min bar completed ..

the 11.00 bar is not bullish at all..

my views..

thanks vineet…yup… of the same view….TFA doesn't show a sign of reversal….current bearish bar on 30 is reducing the bullish sentiment created by earlier 2 bars….hope i'm correct….else i may be wrong….seniors, pls correct this knowledge thirsty student….

Vineet bhai,

Does the 11.30 bar on the 15 min chart looks like a valid 15 min PH?

If so, then I am convinced to move my SAR at its high+sf.

yes amit ..good PH in 15 min but we get PH in 30 min after 10 min …

don't forget to add below LOD

Regarding the 2nd add:

If I make a 2nd add here and the market were to reverse to take out my current SAR 4568. Then all three of my positions will suffer noticeably damage.

Therefore, I am moved to partially make a 2nd add and add a little more later after a the market gives a better SAR. Thoda profit suffer karenge, but am willing to pay this price for safety.

sar at 11.30 bar high …

Interesting. One of these days will break this wedge. It would be better if that day starts from the top of this wedge, with a gap up above this wedge and comes avalanching down to 4450….. :)

Only if wishes were horses….

hold on my friend .. we will fully ready for that day , whenever it comes…

now be ready for sar ..

stop hit ..long now ….

well done,vineet/everyone……

thanx a lot saint….

Saint sir,

Your presence will increase our confidence in trading.
Thanks & regards
VJAY

am around Vijay……nothing really to add to some excellent posts from Vineet and Amit…Well done and great going.

Looking to add over HOD… :)

The only way my 'wish' could've come true if there was a reversal today. :) Next step, the prices should close near the upper boundary… then tomorrow dhamaal …. !!

will add over hod+af

add trigered

seniors what is the current sar????

Looks like TFA again…. the 2.30 bar low-sf on 15 min chart could be a proper sar.

Finished todays trade as loss.But tommarow is a new day!!!!!!!

regards
VJAY

Trades for July 28th, 2009

Kapil

Good morning to my respected teachers….Saint Sir and ST Sir…….and my my friends who helped me to learn trading selflessly….

this is my first step in this lovely abode of trading…..

will try my best to learn here from my seniors and friends……

welcome my friend …

Welcome Hitesh. I have a fairly good feeling that you will enjoy trading today :)

long triggered

Long now…

PS: Vineet bhai could you please start a new page after every 150 posts, else the pages take longer to load. Just a request. Pls follow your convinience only.

Amit, we have been doing that and will take care of that.

Kapil

Thanks vineet ,ST sir and Kapil Sir for helping me……

Sure Amit….will enjoy it today and every day…..

yes amit .. very right about that ..

as just 2 days are left in the month we may start new one from 1 august ..this helps in searching later ..

thanx

HELLO SENIORS
I AM VIJAY . I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING YOU SENIORS IN TJ FROM THE SIDELINES. YOUR POSTS HAVE BEEN HUGELY BENEFICIAL ALTHOUGH NOT MONEY WISE . SOME DAYS I HAVE BEEN CONFUSED BUT NOWADAYS TRYING TO BE AT PEACE WITH MY INNER FEARS . I HAVE JUST JOINED TS. AND HOPE TO CONTINUE OUR FRUITFUL RELATIONSHIP .
ONCE AGAIN THANKS A LOT………..
VIJAY

vineet add wll triger over 2nd 30min bar high+af or not(confusion bcos 2nd 30 min bar didnt breakout 1st)????

yes hvt . add above 11.00 bar high+add fil

okie

hi vijay .Welcome to the TS.

all the best for your profitable trading journey..

regards

vineet

Hoping that 11.30 bar low on 15 min chart ends up being a 15 min PL… :)

PS: A few months ago I considered people who were wishing upon a sar as plain old crazy, borderline suicidal :)

amit . if it take our sar at lod then we can get a big downmove …

A very good mrn to all the seniors and friends….
i am also here following ur footsteps in order to learn more…..and more….
thread on miniflow at TJ looks deserted without u all…
hope to gain new heights here in ur presence….
warm regards,
Raj

welcome raj ..

are you same raj with TJ id of danav05 ?

A warm welcome to you Vijay and Raj. Wishing you all the best.

Kapil

Vineet bhai,

If we get a 15 min PL now as it is clearly TFA… then LOD can be our first add. :)

Pls approve.

very right but me still wait for 60 min bar to complete …

don't ask me to approve ..

you are very much matured now to play it yourself …

thats diff thing that i had to worked very hard for that ..

:)

thanks friends….ya i am the same danav i TJ with a new screen name here….
difficult to post today coz of my net problem…..
will tune in after the net prob is sloved…
thanks
Raj

Raj,

A big day may be around the corner… yeh net problem mehenga pad sakta hai!!

short now …

My goodness look at the bar, it is making the other bars looking crazily small….

Vineet bhai… aap ki zaban hai ya Maya ka jaal…. LOD broke and the market went crashing, just like you had anticipated!!

Looks like a monster bar. In which case I am going to have to read-up again as to how to lower SAR….

hope everybody enjoying the brake of support….

SAR at WRB high …

A stupid question, but whats the full form of TFA. Am still not familiar with all the terminology

TFA= Time Frame Amalgamation ..

Thanks

why vineet doesnt this qualify as monster WRB with breakdown characterisitics, so the stops should be upper 33% part of WRB ?

thats grey area for me ..have to work on it ..better then that me may be out at resting bar's high as this is brakedown bar.. but sure market will give lower PH ..

MORE LATER….

Vineet
Your grip on miniflow is solid:-)
Bee

any body added below wrb?

This is a 80 point bar. Hence I am inclined to using it as a Monster WRB, and accordingly the rules will apply.

On a different note, we have had only 80 points in favour. So will be adding below this Monster as the Bulls could be beaten more.

For the ones who were shuddering due to the last few bad days that gave us a SARs three times in a row with initial position+add. Last twenty minutes have covered all that loss and still looks on fire. So have faith…. hang on to the rules a little longer.

thanx Bee..

vineet is it advisable to add below such a huge wrb??????

well said amit…hanging on

I HAVE EXITED MY POSITIONS AT 4420
VIJAY

yes hvt but keep an eye on MM…

Added below this WRB. The lots were few as the stop is large. MM is most important.

Currently, as 60 and 30 min bars are still incomplete

1) 30 min is about to print an up bar
2) 60 min has given a clear message with its tail.

Now we need a 15 min PH to execute a TFA correctly.

For now, lets wait and watch till this 30 min bar closes. If it closes up strongly, then I won't be waiting for any further confirmation from 60 min… will only be waiting for a 15 min PH formation to SAR above its high+sf

Amit.

Amit.

don't worry amit ..market will give you clear PH on 30 min …

retracements are very normal from xx00. levels …

p.s. looks we are most chatter group here ..

p.s. looks we are most chatter group here ..

:)

The thread has been quite for a while. Its about time the chatter picked-up :)

every body busy in collecting gains

what is the current sar??

at PH at 15 min at 13.00 with TFA …

at PH at 15 min at 13.00 with TFA …

Vineet bhai,

Are you saying that 13.00 bar high on 15 min chart is a PH already ?

YES…do you want it to cross the LOD first ??

its more like an area of resistance rather then point of res.

60 min bullish after hammer, 30 min bullish bar making HL but upper shadow……15 min 5 completed bullish bars with HL…..I think TFA should be positive here…..seniors plz explain

Yes hitesh ..me now long ..

SAR hit for remaining lots…

long now……..

trade is going well ..

booked 1/3 around 4525…

have seen first time miniflow giving so many points and having traded both sides……

oh ..its not too big till now ..didn't you trade on 6- july ..budget day & satyam day …?

naa…i wasnt aware of such a beauty ata satyam time and 6th july i was in kedarnath baba bhole shankar ke paas….so missed both days….. :(

ok …hold on buddy ..there are many days ahead like that ..

all the best ..

tushar hw was ur yatra?
land slide was there in kedar nath or badrinath?

hvtrader…it was great, have written a review on mouthshut. same id.

Vineet bhai…

Is TFA asking us to short below 2.30 bar low on 15 min chart?

Lots of good learning today on TFA etc.

today is truly a miniflow day……..no mercy to market by profit booking….will squeeze as much as possible till end….

Booked all……a good day…..

Continuing the discussions in new thread ..

Link to the new thread ...

Kapil