Trading With The Flow!!!

Continuing the discussion here….

Link to the previous thread...

Kapil

NF 60m is in short now, right? Huge downward WRB ensured that erasing all of friday's move.

SAR triggered for short in NF. Huge downward WRB.
I have added to longs at today's opening bar high. Please comment on whether this is a valid add point or not.

Yes Milind, short triggered below friday's 3pm bar low - f.
Yes Nagakiran, today's opening bar high was a valid add point.

Kapil

were there 3 adds on the way today ?? as per 1. WRB breakdown 2. failed "pivot" 3. WRB again… SL to be decided as per 2 bar rule

Though a pivot is more a sideways so will wait for more bar to form

Regards
Satya

Hi all…

Missed the action in last week, was on a week long trip to Badrinath and Kedarnath.
Will look to enter the flow again from break of the current congestion…..

Thankuzzz Satya for the regular charts….

Cheers,
Tushar

hi satya.. thanks for the charts

So tushar… Good so now we have God's blessing too :) … by the way we had a SAINT too here ( literal meaning) ..hehe

hello satya
nice chart … but dont you think just above the sideways there is a PH at 4252.

Thanks
KomaL

Hi komal Nice to see you in nifty thread after a loooong time are you saying 2 pm bar of yesterday ………. in my view its not a pivot its a continuation bar as pivots are made by rally and declines ……. my way of thinking again you must be enjoing now in nifty

Regards
Satya

Shorted below the first 5 min bar…gap down……

Tushar Bhai ……… i think it is wise to wait for next flow ……

Regards
Satya

Somebody please post current state of NF and BankNF flow. I am having trouble with my data today. Thanks

OOpps sorry for lae here is the chart ……………..

Regards
Satya

Hi Milind,

Todays NF chart

I see todays high can be taken as SAR. Others,please comment

Thank you very much Satya and Nagakiran

Bank nifty chart ………….

Regards
Satya

Great charts, Satya!!! And great observation on pivots. SAR for NF is at yesterday's high. Enjoy this flow till the last :-)
Bee

Tushar Bhai ……… i think it is wise to wait for next flow ……

Regards
Satya

thanku Satya…but how do i know when next flow will start, i think you meant to say when flow changes course from short to long ???

hi guys, this is my first post on this great forum. i have done this 60 min flow nifty some 1 year back, just now i went thru the method details and the past posts. great to see all the experts here.

i am planning to enter again in nifty. waiting for next reversal

……..

…………..thanku Satya…but how do i know when next flow will start, i think you meant to say when flow changes course from short to long ???

Yes Tushar when flow changes to long ………. are ou same Tushar Of TJ "kmtushar " ?

Regards
Satya

M View …………

Regards
Satya

Satya
I tell you one thing .. I know 90-95% of the time your post contains chart which I cannot view in Office (these sites are blocked) .. but still as soon as I see your post I jump to it … in a hope that you might have thrown out a gem of wisdom which I dont want to miss ….
there are few others Bee, Neeraj , ST … hmmm Saint ofcourse

Thanks
KomaL

Will shift SAR to today's high once the current bar is closed - new low already made and after completion of the bar high chances of 11 am bar becoming a pivot high….

It is already PH tushar .. no need to wait

Satya
I tell you one thing .. I know 90-95% of the time your post contains chart which I cannot view in Office (these sites are blocked) .. but still as soon as I see your post I jump to it … in a hope that you might have thrown out a gem of wisdom which I dont want to miss ….
there are few others Bee, Neeraj , ST … hmmm Saint ofcourse

Thanks
KomaL

Hi Komal Cuould not help you on chart any way thhanks for compliment though dont deserve ……
Regards
Satya

Hi Price Going into Consolidation Mode Even If you are taking 11 Am bar AS SAR please be alert at these levels ………

My View Only

Regards
Satya

Agree with Satya's chart here. After such a long sideways move, I would prefer to keep my SAR at 3 pm bar hi of yesterday though 11 am bar of today is a lower confirmed PH.
Bee

…………Agree with Satya's chart here. After such a long sideways move, I would prefer to keep my SAR at 3 pm bar hi of yesterday though 11 am bar of today is a lower confirmed PH.
Bee

Hi Bee though 11 Am bar is a pivot ,some time more the price trade under pivot high more important it will be ( in my view ) but look at this pivot the bar which confirms its pivotness is a break down failed bar clear rejection of price at lower level and imidiately next bar chalenged the 11 Am bars high its only diluting the pivots strength …….. so break out from this may not lead a imideate run but if we have a Gap UP (break way Gap) it will be a great trade ……..Waiting your views

Regards
Satya

Yes Satya - how very right and 100% correct observation. I think one more parameter which we have to bring into this 60 min flow is - how a particular bar closes and that indicates the strength of a particular move. I have been thinking on these lines as this thing comes very handy while trading smaller TFs like 5 min bars. I think Saint will bring in this sophistication in form of a rule in our next round of knowledge upgradation.
Great post.
Bee

……………Yes Satya - how very right and 100% correct observation. I think one more parameter which we have to bring into this 60 min flow is - how a particular bar closes and that indicates the strength of a particular move. I havebeen thibold textnking on these lines as this thing comes very handy while trading smaller TFs like 5 min bars. I think Saint will bring in this sophistication in form of a rule in our next round of knowledge upgradation.
Great post.
Bee

Yes Bee Waiting For Saint to Come back …. i think looking at Bars wile foramtion of Pivots is a important thing ……….

Any Way i am looking for Saint to Caome back With A gift of " Ambushing on 60 Min " Lets Wait

Regards
Satya

One more thing —- in 60 min flow - as per Saint - bulls climb stairs and bears jump out of the windows. That is — market always goes up slowly with a struggle but comes down fast at the slightest hint of weakness and panic spreads.

So when you are long have an aggressive approach to go short but when you are short then have a conservative approach to go long.

The gap rules and WRB rules of 60 min and mini flow also reflect this thinking.

Happy trading

Bee

very rightly said bee and satya :)

Wow!!! What a sideways movement tapering off to nearly a point!!! Any breakout/down from this will be spectacular!!!
Bee

My View ……….

Regards
Satya

……..

……Wow!!! What a sideways movement tapering off to nearly a point!!! Any breakout/down from this will be spectacular!!!
Bee

Yes Bee lets wait for another Ride ……… A Gap Up ( if it changes to upside will be more ummy)

Regards
Satya

Satya!!! burst a few crackers. So my bet on gap filling will come true. Happy flow trading till 3600.:-)
Bee

60 min flow caught this down flow from 4331 approx and hopefully will catch another 150 to 200 points before turning up temporarily and then crash till 3600 for the gap to be filled. After that a new chapter will begin. My views only.
Bee

……….Satya!!! burst a few crackers. So my bet on gap filling will come true. Happy flow trading till 3600.:-)
Bee

Thank you ji

Bee - Your views are always very valuable.

Satya - thanks for the charts you post regularly, they keep giving us a sense of direction.

Makhijani

Satya…thanks to you for the continuous charts……i am still in the flow….short saved by a whisker today….was using bigger filter of 25 to reverse and it helped….

Bee - I just hope i can look into the future of market, still lot to learn there….i had thought tht someday this election gap will be filled but can never see it coming, the flow is helping me staying in the market……
thanks all….

Hi Makhijani…..havent seen you for days….hope you are doing well.

Happy weekend to all.

cheers,
tushar

My View ……. hope Every one is shot

Regards
Sata

Happy Week End to All C u on monday

Regards
Saya

Thanks RKM and Tushar for your kind words and Satya for his excellent charts. Tushar, the placement of SAR was discussed at length by Satya and me. 25 points filter!!! Are you changing this on whims and fancies??!!!

The filter is to take care of freak spikes but placement of SAR is very logical and will help you in the long run.

Happy trading

Bee

Thanks Bee for reminding that.

But I have been using 25 point filter for flows which lasts for some significant time. No whims and fancies there, your discussion with Satya gave great insight into understanding the price movement and acknowledging and finding out strength of pivot. But after a long down move, or upmove an erratic price movement in the opposite direction is not ruled out which Sunil call in his thread a Gud Bye Kiss to last support/resistance level, to save from such movements I keep the large filters, because till now I was taking all the pivots in my stride, cant suddenly change my approach as you are discussing, but yes I am learning reading the price action a little slow but learning…..it will take time for me to reach levels of yours and Satya, and once I am confident about reading the strength of pivots, then will be able to go confidently about placing SAR on the previous ones. Till then I have to be content with lesser profits coz of large filters.

I know its a great privilege to have learned the trade with the seniors, but one of the seniors rightly pointed out that one day many of you wont be there, so one has to be confident for trading alone, as if in a forest with no help just the screen.

The logic of 25 points is 15% of ATR rounded off to nearest 5 points. Current ATR was around 142-145 so 25 points.

Hope I dont sound too naive. Look forward to more such learnings from you.

Regards,
Tushar

Tushar

Nice post. But still feel 25 points filter for NF is too much. 25 + 25 = 50 points for a reversal!!! That is sometimes what we make in miniflow in a day or in ambush playing 5 min charts.

Anyway to each as per his understanding.

Happy trading

Bee

Hi Tushar,

Interesting logic in your last post. I had also placed my SAR high in line with Bee's post of 9th July, 15.28hrs - "when you are long, have an aggressive approach to go short but when you are short, have a conservative approach to go long". This , and the resistance around 4150 levels made me very cautious. Fortunately, the market did not take out Bee's SAR above the 3pm bar high of the 9th.

Happy trading, and more power to our experts and teachers!

Makhijani

Came across something interesting,
NF daily charts we have a H&S Break, target for the downfall is exactly the gap filling point…….. some stocks though have bullish WW on hourly, next week will be
nice

MJ-

Neeraj/MJ

Great charts!!!

.. some stocks though have bullish WW on hourly, next week will be
nice

MJ-

MJ

Some charts on WW would be great!!!

Bee

Good Morning All ……

Regards
Satya

….

…..MJ

Some charts on WW would be great!!!

Bee

Is it Wolf Wave ?

Regards
Satya

Is it Wolf Wave ?

Regards
Satya

Yes Satya
Bee

My View ……
Its Nice to see Reaction from previous close lets wait o see how it pan out today

Regards
Satya

Sorry Bee Only just logged in at TS, something wrong with my internet connection.

Actually I meant WW on Daily charts, I am the the last person to identify Wolfes, still trying to learn it. RIL is putting up a bullish one on daily and hdil is in the process of forming the 3rd point, maybe it did so today.

is our curent pivot at 3988? so if we get a gap up today above 3988+filter and w go long on high og 1st bar + big filter or else do nothing. is that correct?

Yesterday we had a gap in our favor, then the 11am bar made a PH. So a long triggered over that bar yesterday itself. And we should be carrying longs right now.

Kapil

Good morning …….Gap if it becomes break way Gap by trading above 5 min hih then it will be a nice trade

Regards
Satya

will go long above opening bar high + big F

Cheers,
Tushar

Yesterday we had a gap in our favor, then the 11am bar made a PH. So a long triggered over that bar yesterday itself. And we should be carrying longs right now.

Kapil

NF - 11 am bar hi of yesterday was a PH no doubt but it was a very minor pivot taking out the high of previous 5 min bar barely. Now 5 min bar is a very tricky bar as it is of only 5 minutes on general 60 min bar theme here. Now after such a big fall, do we take such a PH as place where price turns to go long?

Visually 2pm bar hi is more seemingly likely place to place the SAR.

Some discussions and clarifications on this point from Saint and seniors please.

Bee

Dont agree with you here Bee….

Long move..gap down…..then a pivot…then a move below the lows of the day that time. What else do we require to go long? Pivot of 11am may look minor now, but wasnt so when it was made.

Thanks,
Puneet

Although it's just 5m of watch time, it represents events and trader psychology corresponding to over 18 hours. Anyhow, any rules based on this should be backed by backtesting

Thanks Puneet,

Judgment error on my part :-(

Bee

……..

.Although it's just 5m of watch time, it represents events and trader psychology corresponding to over 18 hours. Anyhow, any rules based on this should be backed by backtesting

Yes that is why we give lot of respect to this 5 min bar on Gap days………..it is the reflection of pshycology of traders built after market but this pshycology get tested on opening of marketv in terms of actual suply/demand ………. that is why some time we have gap up but we dont break out to up side or cud not clear 5 min high same as gap down

Reards
Satya

OK Now this break way GAP shud give us some points ….. we just love Gaps……….

Regards
Satya

what is break way GAP ? i have moved SAR to 1 PM bar low although 3 PM also looks like a hidden pivot - isn't it ?

Yes Tushar, as of now 1pm low -f is the correct place for SAR. Tomorrow we can review the place to shift SAR to depending on where the market opens.

Regarding break away gap, you can get the information about it here.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil…seems I have too many things missing from my db…

@ pschadha and @ kapil bhai

Pivots need to be visual ..seems that the 11 am was not a visual one .. it has been clrified by PSCHADHA once.. but still I think its in that grey zone :)

EDIT:- i thnk i understod the reasons welll now :) .. thanks PS and kapil bhai for explaining

yesterday 11 am bar was PH and broken by 2 pm bar. but 2 pm bar high was not broken yesterday and also we closed below that ba high. so should we have reversed ?

yesterday 11 am bar was PH and broken by 2 pm bar. but 2 pm bar high was not broken yesterday and also we closed below that ba high. so should we have reversed ?

11 am bar hi was the PH where the reversal took place so that is the point where EOD reversal is to be watched. The price traded higher then that at around 3:25 pm. So no EOD reversal, close shave though.

Bee

Hi everyone,

Market opened with a visual gap up, so today's SAR below opening bar low…

Makhijani

Hardly a gap RKM….stops at ydays pivot as of now.

Puneet

Puneet -

Gap rules don't apply here? The open was above existing pivots. Yesterday's discussion did give a lot of weightage to the opening bar…

Makhijani

….

……Puneet -

Gap rules don't apply here? The open was above existing pivots. Yesterday's discussion did give a lot of weightage to the opening bar…

Makhijani

Hi My View …………

Regards
Satya

Makhijani, Yesterday's open had a huge visual gap, whereas today the 5min opening bar low is almost in yesterdays range. So there is no gap today.

Kapil

Edit : thanks Satya for the charts. Makhijani look at the chart and hope you can see the difference.

Hello Kapil, Puneet , MJ . Is there any problem in Site I have been trying to log in since 1 hour just now successed or any problem in my end but other sites working fine …….

Regards
Satya

Satya and Kapil -

Thanks for the chart and the explanation. Will keep this aspect in mind. One question then - do we add above today's opening bar high or not?

Makhijani

Hello Kapil, Puneet , MJ . Is there any problem in Site I have been trying to log in since 1 hour just now successed or any problem in my end but other sites working fine …….

Regards
Satya

Hi Satya !

When this happens Try closing the browser, disconnecting you internet and then reconnect. This should work.

Regards,
MJ-

Satya, my friend, please draw a chart of NF showing WRBs of 200 points each from 4150 to 6300. We will add 10 lots at each WRB hi and then retire to Himalayas and sing hymns in praise of the Lord.
;-)
Bee

Hi Bee,

Your post to Satya above —- let me in on it when you do, I may come too!

Btw, adds triggerred above opening bar high.

Makhijani

Satya, my friend, please draw a chart of NF showing WRBs of 200 points each from 4150 to 6300. We will add 10 lots at each WRB hi and then retire to Himalayas and sing hymns in praise of the Lord.

Why Himalayas..why not Pattaya Bee Sir? Whats the use of so much money on Himalayas, its better utilised at Pattaya.

Puneet
ps: just joking, hope u dont mind

Puneet,
Whatever you can do in Pattaya, you can do in Himalayas, much cheaper, no language problem, fantastic climate and you can live like a king. Hope you get my drift - cannot elaborate further as this is a serious forum ;-);-)
Bee

huuuuf just log in Thanks MJ willl do so what you said ……….

Bee lets hope we go t o 6300…. Any way found break out interms of Gaps are profitable and more reliable though lot of people hate Gaps

Regardds
Satya

Ever One must be Enjoying now

Good morning everyone,

Today's SAR at yesterday's 3pm bar low (2 bar rule ) or today's opening bar low? Today's gap up does definitely look more prominent than yesterday's.

Makhijani

Dear friends,

Where is our sar now.Is it yday3bar low?

Thanks & regards
VJAY

SAR would be today's opening bar low - big filter

Kapil

My short triggered below the opening bar low…keeping SAR at day's high

Kapil,

Mini made a low of 26 points below the opening bar low around 10.15am this morning, but somehow my order did not go at all.

And by 'big filter' I hope you mean 20 points. Your comments please.

Makhijani

Hello Guys
I am away from my terminal today .. please tell me what is the SAR (levels please without the filter) .. Also tell me is first 5min bar red or green.
Help required on Bank Nifty as well.
Thanking you in anticipation.

Regards
KomaL

Komal,
5min bar is RED and my sar hit blw 5 min bar-MF

Regards
VJAY

5min BAR high-4289 Low-4278

Regards
VJAY

Komal,

Nifty opening bar low is 4278, red bar. Bank Nifty opening bar is green, low is 7004

Makhijani

Thanks Guys !!!!

Whats with the EOD reversal today? We didn't reverse on a pivot. But clearly, the chart now looks lot different than it did today AM

EDIT: Please forget that I asked. Chart looks lot different than it did 15min ago :-(

lol Milind.. But I think I should still post. In these cases when the pivots are far and reversal is based on opening bar low break or 2 bar, there are no EOD reversals. Like in todays case there would not have been any EOD reversal.

But now let us take another example, let us say we short on break of opening bar low. The price keeps on moving down and breaks the previous PL. After this break if the market closes above this PL but below our reversal point, even then it calls for EOD reversal. So it is essentially where mkt closes with respect to pivots that calls for EOD reversal and not the point where we actually reverse. I hope I have been able to explain this situation.

Kapil

Reversed to long above the 3PM pivot high of yesterday…..

Hi Tushar,

I'm with you…

Makhijani

Another Do Nothing Day……..The Lazyman Rules!!

Latest SAR 4345-f

Balley Balley - chak te phattey - (rough translation - hip hip hurrey!!!!) Watch movie and a have good lunch and earn money - what more can you ask????!!!!!

All thanks to Saint.

God bless you

Bee

PS: Prices rose till the last minute

Bee Aaj App mood me ho lol ……………

there are time price rose till last minute but nxt day a Gap Down ………. a Shocking Gap / Kicker Gap ( Documented in chool Section ) Which also leads price movement very fast in dirction of Gap

Reards
Satya

EDIT: How to Add a Signature saw neeraj and others doing

there are time price rose till last minute but nxt day a Gap Down ………. a Shocking Gap / Kicker Gap ( Documented in chool Section ) Which also leads price movement very fast in dirction of Gap

Reards
Satya

Additional point: Bollinger bands on daily chart indicate some space still there on the upside for NF to move up before it hits the upper limit. Today's strong close above the TL indicates upward momentum.

Don't get married to pre-conceived ideas. Trade the charts. The above is just crystal gazing for some fun.

Bee

some more crystal gazing,those trendlines were drawn on daily chart same as bee's chart and the chart here is weekly,
1. we can see the downmove of last week is negated by this upmove - Breakdown failure - will be more prominent if the high of the previous bearish bar is taken out, + filter of say 10% of ATR which is 333 on weekly means, a 35 point + over this bearish bar.
2. also the black bar is a pivot high now (its low was breached by the green bar), thus a move above this bearish will mean two things - breakdown failure and pivot high break, if tht happens we should be in a big upmove (right?)

Please to comment, this is my first look at weekly and daily charts. Thanks Bee for giving the trendline thing, I had read somewhere when i started reading about technical analysis, bigger the timeframes more meaningful the technical theories become.

In the meantime Happy Weekend to all.

Regards,
Tushar

Hi Tushar,
Nice post. Tip — trendline is to be drawn from PH high tip to another PH high tip. Minimum of two points to be joined in line, if more fall in line then stronger the TL. Same for the lower TL.
Enjoy the weekend.
Cheers
Bee

Reards
Satya

EDIT: How to Add a Signature saw neeraj and others doing

Goto My Account (Top Right Corner) > My Profile > Forum signature
Bingo!!!

Hi, Bee and Tushar,

Great charts and great posts from both of you - reminds one that there is so much more to learn, see and absorb. You must also have noticed that the market, ie. NF, retraced only 38% of the uptrend which began in March this year , before rebounding upwards from Monday, 13th July. I am not sure though whether I am correct in calculating retracement levels from March instead of considering the major leap from 11th May.

Have been trying to paste a chart but I don't know how to do it — failed 4 times.

Makhijani

PS. Dr. Alexander Elder in his book 'Trading For A Living' advises that trendlines should be drawn through the edges of congestion zones leaving out the extreme prices. He says that the congestion areas reflect the places where masses of people have changed their minds. According to this treatment yesterday's close has not violated the trendline connecting the highs from 1st June onwards.

Makhijani,

TO post a picture first upload it on http://imageshack.us,

Then copy the link, then while posting click the Insert Tmage wizard button and paste that link of your picture. The insert image wizard button is a green onw with blinking star on corner. Hope it helps.

Link for detailed explanation on posting charts ...

Thanks, Tushar and Kapil, for such a quick response (Is this what you do on weekends??!!) Now let me see if I succeed in pasting my chart. Here goes…

I would like to have feedack from all of you to my post just above.

Best wishes,
Makhijani

HI all , posting after long time…been more of a silent student….

@ RKM…I see this week's low is near 38.2 retracement!….IMO fibonacci is the most interesting study in TA/crystal gazing( LoL, I like the term, kudos to whoever coined it :-P)

Will SAR be opening bar -filter? or still yday pivot?

Sid -

Should be opening bar low-f. Btw, thanks for your remarks.

Makhijani

Sar at 4345-f as of now. Had the opening bar been red, then yes, could have moved to opening bar low….

Puneet

Thanks Puneet, yes SL at yesterday's 3 PM bar low region, which is a horizontal pivot low.

Puneet,

Thanks for correcting me…I had totally forgotten about the colour of the opening bar.

Makhijani

puneet ..but bar has big upper tail too…as open is 4433 & close is 4434..so bar is green but if close is just 2points down then bar would be red ..so then only we shift SAR at opening bar's low..

so only 2 point mades all the diff in SAR ??

plz answer EOD ..this is just for study purpose….

thanx

Good Morning All Thanks BEE ,Tushar and RKM for nice charts ………….

Regards
Satya

Stop loss moved to 11 bar low…

Another great day!!!!

Thanks Saint for the wonderful writeup in your blog. Look forward to more.

Bee

Great going,Bee….and thanks.

Saint

hi saint.. nice to see u again… hope u had a great holiday… nice writeup in the blog area :)

Keep Flowing

Not related to this thread but would be thankful if someone can tell me where to get the latest NIFTY 50 stock weightage of individual stocks after switching over to free float system from June 26.
Bee

Bee,
I downloaded this file few weeks back, hopefully this is what you were looking for!

http://rapidshare.com/files/258067023/index_calcn_method_change.xls.html

Pattel

Thanks Pattel,
Yes this is what I was looking for.
Bee

Hello everyone,

Moving SAR to this morning's 11am bar low-f.

Makhijani

No Makhijani, the high of yesterday hasnt been taken out, cant shift SAR….

Tushar, we made a new, higher PL and a new, lower PH (11am and 12noon bars), so in my view we should shift the SAR.

Experts may like to advise.

Makhijani

That's why I think this rule is there that let the new high be made because this may be a flag formation (with those gitpit pivot highs and lows) and might get us into an unnecessary whipsaw. Let us wait a post from Puneet/Satya/Bee/Kapil on this….

RKM, Tushar has rightly pointed out that we wait for new high before shifting SAR to higher PL to save us from whipsaws because of flags etc.

But then we had a PL at 4472 yesterday after which new highs were made. So, it should have triggered a short below 4472-f

Kapil

Kapil, I didn't even consider that 3pm bar because it had a higher high and a lower low than the previous one (and the 3pm PL is easily missed unless you zoom in). Result is I reversed below today's 11am bar though a look at the chart just now is not making me very happy.

Thanks for your post though. Tushar has a chance to reverse at a better price.

Makhijani

Yes Makhijani shorted below 11 am bar as my SAR was shifted there, PL to PL as filter didnt take out the short(i also didnt consider that 3 pm bar as PL only after looking at Kapil's post I did tht, looked at the chart and saw short should have been taken - took it a higher value)…….but it is still looking dicey coz last 3 PM bar was an outside bar and not very clear pivot…..now keeping SAR at yesterday's high.

Seems to me, Tushar, that the SAR should be at today's 12 noon bar high +f, as we have another PL after that.

Makhijani

Yes Makhijani…..true, Satya waiting for a chart from you :)

Somehow filters have kept me long till now. In the morning I had SAR at 3 pm bar lo - f of yesterday - then that was saved - then again shifted to 11 am bar lo - f of today that was saved by a whisker ;-) —- now SAR is at 1 pm bar low - f. Today's 60 min is like miniflow where we are shifting from pivot to pivot.
Bee

Same here,Bee…………….:)

Same here,Bee…………….:)

Glad that I am on the same track as you, Saint. That means my filter is OK. Thanks
Bee

Good afternoon, Saint….good to have you back. Have been admiring what I have been able to understand of your philosophy and your writings in your blog….very few have such vision.

Great going. Hope to learn a lot from you.

Regards,
Makhijani

and my short has triggered due to wrong data, my 11 am low is 4461 whereas actual low is a little lower but wouldnt have allowed me to go short….. :( My chart missed the date between 10.30 and 10.35…….ufff…

Hi Bee,

My filters are obviously not correct in today's scenario - 7 for adds, 15 for SAR and 20 on gap reversals. It would be a great help if you could tell me what filters you are using.

Makhijani

Thank u 4 your kind words,RKM.

Saint

Tushar
Do not worry. Be detached emotionally from trading. Be objective in your outlook and read the chart and trade the chart.

RKM
These were initial filters after that things have changed. For add 7 is ok and for SAR I use 20 in NF. Gaps - I handle differently which may be controversial here so I leave it upto you to back test and find out.
Bee

Thanks, Bee.

Makhijani

Looks like an EOD reversal coming up for those of us who are short….

Makhijani

Yes RKM,so all long at the end of the day.

EOD reversal….no loss but arbit whipsaw…..

Relevant quote:

Re: RelianceInds 60min Flow
Saint001 24 Apr 2009, 03:32 +05.500

Always the one to catch it first…….:) :)

Yes,Bee……Price breaks past the previous pivot high,and then returns to its low below that very pivot………..we trigger off the EOD Reversal.If Price makes a pivot and goes to new highs,meaning we have taken adds,we raise our stops to new pivot lows.In this case,it is the same price…….but price has indicated with some degree of conviction the reversal move.If price did indeed settle back to this pivot without breaking it to the down,no EOD Reversal.

Saint

dear kapil,
Can we raise our SAR for long to this 11 am BO bar low?

Regards
VJAY

VJAY, We have a pivot at yesterday's 2pm bar low. So, the SAR remains there.

Kapil

Thanks kapil………

Regards
VJAY

Good Morning All My View ……….. Sorry Tushar was Busy ysterday could not Post in Real time will do so in future though these are after event till posting

will short below the 11AM bar, 2 bar breakout failure……?

Kapil,

Doesn't this qualify as a BO failure? If so , SAR at BO low-f or somewhere else?

Makhijani

Reversed to shorts below the BO bar - f.

Makhijani

too many views…though all Short now. Taken reversal at 4453-f.

Puneet

SAR at high of the monster WRB ?

too many views…though all Short now. Taken reversal at 4453-f.

Puneet

I am with you Puneet Sir ;-)
Bee

PS: I think Satya's SAR is still intact. He would be long still.

Nobody added below yesterday's low ?

Tushar
Add only on the Pivots Formed in the current trend . Not looking to add on the Pivots formed in preceeding trend.
Just My view

Thanks
KomaL

Thanks Komal….that was important….phew!! Removed the add position at suitable level….

Hi Komal and Tushar,

"Add only on the Pivots Formed in the current trend . Not looking to add on the Pivots formed in preceeding trend.
Just My view"

This doesn't seem to be Saint's view —- refer the thread on Q&A on Failed Breakouts/Breakdowns in 60 Min flow, Bee's query on 14th April '09.

I couldn't/didn't add below the last pivot but that's another story.

Makhijani

Makhijani, Once you reverse on the basis of say failed breakout, then you can add below the last PL (that actually would have been the SAR).

But once the trade is taken on the basis of the break of PL, then look to add only below the pivots in current trend. I hope the difference between the two is clear.

Kapil

Yes Kapil, was about to post just that, was relooking at those Q&A. thanx.

Tushar

Thanks, Kapil -

Trying to digest the fine differences.

Makhijani

Please direct me as well .. cant find that post .

Thanks
KomaL

Komal

Go to Forum home page and check out the "Ask Saint" section.

Makhijani

Careful about a possible gap+2 bar breakdn(in this case multiple bars)set up happening.

Hello Bee, Puneet
It seems you guys have reversed below the Breakout bar (applying breakout failure rule). But as far as I understand the reversal using breakout failure should be done below the BREAKDOWN BAR and not below the Breakout bar.
So we must wait for completion of BRAEKDOWN BAR. The reason I think is what if in anticipation we take the reversal below BREAK OUT BAR and then later on the BREAKDOWN BAR takes a U turn. So my view is completion of breakdown bar is must and then short should come below BREAKDOWN BAR - F. Yes if during the course BREAKDOWN BAR takes your SAR .. reversal as usual.

Satyas Approach is very conservative.. Instead 11 AM bar is WRB … the next bar bullish formation taking previous PH .. hence I bring my stops Below 11 AM bar (very close to days low.) and my reversal happened there.

Thanks
KomaL

I am back in long……..

Saint

over the 5min bar high + f

Saint Sir,

Shouldn't the gap rule apply only if the gap is beyond the existing stops? I was under the impression that we would apply the gap rule only if our SAR over yesterday's WRB was taken out.

—Bonny

Saint sir .. BN as well

Sorry Komal……shall do it over at the Bank Nf 60min Flow Thread.

bonny famous lines- jo beet gayi wo baat gayi also aplies here

Hi all.
Can we take an add above yday high if we happen to cross? i ask as we have taken reversal not on pivots but gap reversal

Careful about a possible gap+2 bar breakdn(in this case multiple bars)set up happening.

Great Saint!!! Am long with you now too.
Thanks - would not have caught this without your prodding!!!
Bee

I was going to ask the same thing — gaps rules specify visual gaps beyond our stops.

Makhijani

Komal,
AT EOD please go thru all the posts. Puneet, Saint and myself went short below 3 pm bar lo - f of 21/7 and breakout bar of yesterday was not considered for shifting SAR. That is the crux of all the discussions emanating out of Pattel's query.
Happy trading
Bee

Saint sir,
Confussions intodays reversal.Please give some clear advice how we reversed .today gapup not abv our sar.Please………

Regards
VJAY

Saint sir,
Confussions intodays reversal.Please give some clear advice how we reversed .today gapup not abv our sar.Please………

Regards
VJAY

Vijay rules clearly says that reversal is as per first bar ie 5min bar irrespective of previous pivots n sl

SAR for Long at yeasterday's 1530 bar low-F or todays 1st bar low-F?

Please clarify

Regards

Muktha 23 Jul 2009, 11:27 GMT+0530
SAR for Long at yeasterday's 1530 bar low-F or todays 1st bar low-F?

Please clarify

Regards

muktha forget abt previous day, previous day pivots r of no importance
todays sar is the later case ie 1stbar -f

Hvtrader, Can you kindly direct us to the posts where the gap rules have changed? I am looking at the method description, modifications and demystfying links, but did not come across any of the new changes.

Appreciate
—Bonny

Yes hvtrader,
Please give the link where the gap rules changed.Please…………..

Regards
VJAY

Dear seniours,

I not find the gap rule which today used to reverse long .Please anybody hav the link please post it.

Regards
VJAY

VJAY, The answer to your question is in breakdown failure that has been discussed in Saint's Section in the forums. Long above opening bar high was taken because of that.

Kapil

Dear Kapil,
Thanks for the reply.Will look all modifications EOD.Am still in short now.sar is yday BD bar high+f,now changed to todays 11 am bar high!!!

Regards
VJAY

Is add triggered in NF?

Regards

Yes Muktha,ADD 1 triggerred

Saint

Hi Saint and other fellow traders,
As we reversed today because of failed breakdown so in such cases are we supposed to reverse to long with full (4 lots) position or with 1 lot only? I understand that if this happened on the same day then full lots but what if this trigger on the very next day?

Deb,

Yesterday we reversed to short and we did not have any opportunity to add so people would be carrying only original lots.
Some may have added if they went short at breakout bar low and added at pivot low. For them today's reversal is with original lot only.
Bee

Today we went long on the basis breakdown failure which Saint pointed out well in time otherwise we would have been caught unawares (guess I have to go and sit under some Bodhi tree to get such amazing insight into 60 min flow method).

But actual SAR for reversal is 11 am hi so keep a look out for that in case of EOD reversal.

Bee

Deb,

Yesterday we reversed to short and we did not have any opportunity to add so people would be carrying only original lots.
Some may have added if they went short at breakout bar low and added at pivot low. For them today's reversal is with original lot only.
Bee

Hi Bee,
Sorry but still not clear to me. As we do EOD reversal with initial position size (say, 4 lots if reverse to long). Let's consider the scenario. I entered long at 4000 with 1 lot, now I added 3 additional lots at 3 different add points. So total lot size=4. Now when SAR hit I reverse to short with 1 lot only and wait for add points. But when EOD reversal triggers on the same day we reverses to long with initial position size (4 lots). But what if this reversal happens on the very next day instead of that day, then shouldn't we reverse to long with the original (4 lots) lot size or again start with 1 lot?

Deb, its just EOD reversal where we reverse with full original position. In that case it is as if we had never reversed. In all other cases, its always a fresh trade with the initial position only.

Kapil

Hi Kapil and Bee, Thanks for the clarification. Clear now.

Saint Sir/Seniors,

Going through all the forums/discussions on 60 min flow, I have identified that there are a couple of modifications to the original method that are not easy to find. I understand these are part of your trading actions without thinking effort, but for new comers like me, it is a little tough.

Could you possibly update the method description/Latest Modification for the 60 min flow thread to incorporate the the following changes?

1. Pivot filter - Method talks about 15, this as per my understanding has been changed to 20
2. BO Failure reversal - Can the original section in the methods page be updated to mention this rule is applicable only in case of WRB. The later discussions have clarified a lot of things but the original method talks about any BO not only WRB.
3. Moving Pivot Filters - I had to hunt a lot for this one.
4. BO Failure reversal Gap rule - Came to know about this today.

I hope I am not asking too much…

—Bonny

Can someone please post Hourly nifty future charts of last 5 days in continuation(in 1 chart).

Sidharth

Dear Kapil/seniors,

Is todays reversal as per 2bar breakout failure?If so here comes count of 3 bars.Please give some clarity about todays reversal above 5min bar high.Its very much helpfull to update our mind to it.

Regards
VJAY

Hello Sidharth,

Here's the NF hourly chart for the last 6 days.

Hope it helps. Best wishes,

Makhijani

Dear Kapil/seniors,

Is todays reversal as per 2bar breakout failure?If so here comes count of 3 bars.Please give some clarity about todays reversal above 5min bar high.Its very much helpfull to update our mind to it.

Regards
VJAY

Vjay,

Please study the breakdown failure 2 bar rule and try to understand the price action. Am putting up the chart explaining the concept. Hope it clarifies your doubts. If not then please ask. Do not be dogmatic about 2 bars or 3 bars - try to understand why some action is being taken.
Bee

Good reading of price action,Bee…..Very well explained….Great going….

Small correction…SAR point is 2 bars earlier PL than shown by you….must be a marking error I am sure…

Best Wishes,

Smart_trade

Hmmm ST,

No marking error, especially on charts put up on public forums after market hours. I considered this point while putting up the chart and was in two minds then I decided in favour of the marked PL as that was the point where I had reversed to short so I thought that should be the reference point for reversal back to longs yesterday.

I am of the view — in flow the last PL rules the roost - i.e., of utmost importance. My view - maybe Saint can correct this as we have to clear everything to its finality.

Thanks for bringing up this point - it is a grey area for me too.

Bee

friends ..please do not go by the words in the rules… those are provided to give a framework only..try to read the price action that governs the rule.. Hope the best for u

Keep flowing

Nifty Sar IMO, but for gap up should we reverse below 5 min bar low? Not sure. Other fellow traders, pls comment.

Hi Deb
we'll follow the gap rule I guess today, if opening bar red then short below -filter, or I will add above if its green

Thanks a lot Bee…very clear now on yest action

Hi Bonny,
Hope this will clear your doubts regarding filter.

Thanks Deb. Bee mentioned that the original numbers have changed in his post on 21st July, hence the confusion.
http://tradersaint.com/forum/t-166974/nifty-futures-60-min-flow-from-july-4th-2009#post-539984

No visual gap up, new high, Closest pivot at 1 pm PL. no change in SAR. Please correct if I am wrong

WOW So Much discussion.. Good Morning All

My View ………. That Gap Yestrday Was the Gap Against trend so taken

Satya
Cant view your chart .. but my guess is you might be pointing to yday 1pm bar ..
Ok tell me isnt now we have bullish 5min bar taking previus high warrant yday 3:30 PM bar as minor pivot low … or I am getting too agressive.
BEE What you say ??

Are we short now in nf ? we are long and mkt gap up, first 5min bar is red so reverse below it - big filter. plz correct if i m wrong.

Hi Komal No My SAR is at yeasterdays 12 PM bar why coz we have a GAp Up and we know why Gaps occure and then 5 min high broken then retracement at 11 and 12 pm bar and exactly supported at 5 min lows so this GAP proves its importance and not a freak GAP …and Bulls represent themself there very strongly so in my view its a valid SAR instead of 3 pm bar by the way waiting to another pivot form as we reacted from prvious top now consolidating lets see how it pan out ……….

My view only

Prem, this was hardly a gap as the low of opening bar is 4551 and yesterdays high was 4547. So, SAR as it was yesterdays pivot low -f (12 o'clock bar low -f)

Kapil

Debdeeps,
Please do not put actual filter figure in the charts or in the posts. This is no longer a collective thing and is more of personal preference.

Komal
Yes Komal guess that would be a bit aggressive.
Bee

Thanks Kapil… very clear now

Bonny, As posted by Bee filters are being selected individually by checking out the suitability.
About incorporating the changes in the main section i.e. site, we will keep on doing that from time to time, but one needs to keep a check on the Saints section.

Kapil

Ahh!! Sorry Bee, was not aware of this.

Hope you all have added and would love to move the SAR now :-)

Yes Deb
Add over day's hi and SAR at 1 pm bar lo
Bee

flow again flowing…. :)

saint plz reply to my question on 2 bar setup in saint section/ ask saint-q/a on failed BO/BD in 60 min flow

Good Morning All…………

Dear Fellow Traders,
Can we take this as our new SAR?

For me Will Wait thi bar to complet/ if sidways thn mor baror time to wait though we have new highs still personal choice ………….

Add triggerred over the opening bar high +f.

Makhijani

My View Still Now…………

Yes, Satya, I'm uncomfortable too. But the opening high was above the previous high…

Makhijani

Hi guys,
Where is sar now? Mine is still fridays low!!!

Hi Friends,

Joining all of you again after a long time..

My wedding took place wonderfully. Had a great time… Went to lots of places and had great feasts.. Thanks to all of you, for your wishes and blessings..

I hope I have'nt missed anything big. Good to see all the changes, with new moderators.. Best wishes to all of them.
Very happy to be here again.. Now joining the flow. The SAR is at friday's low, am I right..

Thanks
amrut

Hi Amrut,

Congratulations and best wishes.

Makhijani

Congratulations and best wishes Amrut.

Correct regarding the SAR.

Kapil

Congrats Amrut…and right on the stops. Lots of new things happening on this site…..do catch up once free.

Puneet.

Congrats Amrut bhai welcome back …………….

Congrats Amrut. Welcome back. Hope you can concentrate on trading:)
Happy Trading
Bee

Ah,great 2 have you back,Amrut……….

Saint

heartily congratulations amrut :)

Hi Satya, Thanks for posting the SAR on time. :-) Really helped else I would have already reversed to short.

Congrats Amrut. Wish you a very happy and quarrel free married life ahead. ;)

Congrats and welcome back Amrut. May you be with the flow in trading and otherwise….. :)

…………Hi Satya, Thanks for posting the SAR on time. :-) Really helped else I would have already reversed to short.

This is what i afraid plase dont decide your SAR based on others openion but as this thread is live you can ask whether its a pivot or not thre will be different views with their logic then its you to dcide whether to take it or not once you know where to put SAR then back test it and jump dont depend on others

Please have a look at 5 min bar of today in nifty and mini, there is 20 poiint difference between lows of both, i m trading mini, had this been a gap up, i would have been easily short today but Nifty flow poeple probably not. I have made it a habit to look at NIFTY only for putting my SARs. Am i correct or should i check both the charts and take the more conservative of the two? I am trading MiniNifty.

I have Seen on Gap Days lot of data problem occur durin first 5 min …… i think looking at both is wise any way we are going to have a pivot low lets see how last 20 min pan out

I, too, trade in minifty. I look at nifty charts for PH / PL and take the trade in minifty once the SAR is hit on nifty. I have found that generally there is a diff. of 4-5 points and if you are patient, many a times you get the same trigger price too.

Thanks a lot dear Saint, Kapil, Puneet, Satya, Makhijani, Bee, Neeraj, Tushar, debdeeps and all for your wishes and kind words.

Looking forward to Flow with you all…

Thanks,
amrut

Hi All, Can you consider yesterday low as a valid pivot for reversal?

Hi debdeeps,
Yes, the current SAR is at yesterday's low - f.

Thanks
amrut

Hi All Good Morning ………… Market in undecidd phase we may have trading mov soon

Hi Amrut, Thanks for confirming.

Yes Satya, kind of moving inside a channel….

Yes Satya, kind of moving inside a channel….

Hi Tushar and all currently was going thru AW10s thread NR7 set up in TJ its a nice concept to know when market goes into sidways and comes out of it if any body has any idea how we can impliment this idea with 60 min flow plese post it will be a great learning experience

dear satya/kapil,

Is now sar yesterdays low?

Regards
VJAY

My View VJAY ………………..

VJAY, As of now SAR remains at 24th low -f.

Kapil

Thanks Kapil an`d satya for timely replay.

Am kept my sar fridays low.But some posts seen here as sar is ydays low.Thats why I asked .

Regards
VJAY

Hmmm
More than 8 hours of sideways movement. Wonder why we have not moved our SAR to yesterday's low? If market falls now it will take out even friday's low. So no point in giving up these points. My view. Plus the WW I posted is scary.
Bee

Dear Kapil/Satya,

Any reason for not considering yesterday's low as SAR… Kindly explain.

Thanks,
amrut

….Hmmm

More than 8 hours of sideways movement. Wonder why we have not moved our SAR to yesterday's low? If market falls now it will take out even friday's low. So no point in giving up these points. My view. Plus the WW I posted is scary.
Bee

Ooops sorry for miscomunication first pivot i mean to say yesterdays low Sorry Again

Would wait for 1-2 more bars to move it to ydays low. Till then keeping at 24th low only.

Bee…a slow market can jerk it both ways…so better to give some more leeway for being doubly sure.

Puneet

……..

……Thanks Kapil an`d satya for timely replay.

Am kept my sar fridays low.But some posts seen here as sar is ydays low.Thats why I asked .

Regards
VJAY

VJAY Sorry For miscomunication ……. First pivot mean yesterdays pivot but keep an eye on area providd by two consecutive pivot first mean latst one i was thinking sorry again ……………….

Agreed Puneet - but the difference in two SARs is very less. After more than 8 hours, NF is going to move sharply anyways and take out even the friday low SAR - that is what I wanted to convey.
Bee

Hello Bee, Satya,

Like all relative newcomers, I am also often confused about shifting (or not shifting) the SARs. Yesterday, we made a new PH at 12 noon, then a PL at 2 pm, followed by a new, though lower PH at 3 pm. This morning's opening bar has the same high.

When we have a PL followed by a new high, how do we decide whether or not to move our SAR to the latest PL? Can someone please clarify so that this becomes second nature to us.

Thanks,

Makhijani

Bee Sir,

A small attempt…just for you.